By George C Michalopulos

Recently, a phenomenon has taken hold of American Orthodoxy. I’m speaking of the so-called Orthobros. Some of the more established Orthodox use this as a term of derision. Many others – I should say most others—do not.

I am one of the latter. In fact, even though I was raised from the cradle in the Church, I am proud to stand with them.

The reason is straightforward: these young men have swelled the ranks of Orthodoxy. Some twenty thousand of them came to Orthodoxy during the great COVID lockdown. We can think of them as a vanguard, as now tens of thousands of young families have joined them. Some estimates indicate that 100,000 people have joined the Church because of the Orthobros and the internet. For this, we should be thankful.

Make no mistake, this did not happen because our esteemed bishops on the Episcopal Assembly created an evangelistic program replete with bullet points and catchy slogans. Nor has the Assembly as a body husbanded the resources needed to create new missions. Quite simply, this was the work of the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit, however, does not work in a vacuum. He uses human beings to do His will. And some of these human beings are the erudite (and boisterous) laymen found on the internet.

You know who I’m talking about: Jay Dyer and Andrew Wilson in particular stand out. Others include Alex Sorin, Jonathan Pageau, David Patrick Harry, Ben Cleave and so on. And this is not a male-only arena. Among the women apologists are Rachel Wilson, Jamie Hanshaw and Dr Eugenia Constantinou. Programs such Patristic Faith, the Transfigured Word, and the Royal Path are hosted by Frs Josiah Trenham, Jonathan Ivanoff and Turbo Qualls. This is just the tip of the iceberg. At the risk of being arrogant, I can say that we owe Orthodox “own” the internet.

They have their critics, most of whom are found in the more staid precincts of self-proclaimed “official” Orthodoxy. By this I mean the likes of the Fordhamites and Public Orthodoxy. Andrew Wilson calls people like this “sewing circle Christians.” (I wish I had thought of that.)

The proof, however, is in the pudding. One hundred thousand people have joined the Faith thanks to the efforts of these Orthodox apologists. How many have joined our ranks because of what they read on The Wheel? To ask this question is to answer it.

So let’s get down to brass tacks. Admittedly, some precincts of the Orthosphere are not for the faint-hearted, as the debates can be boisterous if not caustic, and the language used can be quite profane. I, for one, think that Orthodox apologetics can do just fine without the F-word being uttered. (I also know that there is a special place in heaven for those who have never uttered that word; unfortunately, I also know that I will never go there.) If, however, that is your only objection, then you are part of the problem.

As for the Orthobros themselves, my impression is that they are red-blooded young men who have woken up to the realization that they have been lied to all their lives. Are they conservative? Not really, as there is very little worthwhile to conserve. I would say instead that they are on the Right. So what? I realize this startles the American Establishment and many of the mainline denominations (Orthodox included). Again, so what? The Right reflects reality far more clearly than the Left could ever hope to.

The Democrat Party has embraced every anti-American, anti-Christian and unnatural trope out there. It is natural to react with revulsion to almost every aspect of their program. The shorthand used to describe this narrative is “gayracecommunism,” and it’s hard to argue with that. As for the Republican Party, it has dangled the carrot of patriotism in front of them, promising them that all they must do is join the military and go fight in a useless war for a country the size of New Jersey. And then to come back in a box with a nice Purple Heart for their grieving families. For those who survive, many are physically and emotionally broken and the jobs they were promised went instead to H1B visa holders from India.

In any event, the blinders have come off –and not a moment too soon. These young men desire to be told the truth and if it’s done in an inelegant fashion, so be it.

Fortunately, the majority of our bishops have wisely decided to not make too much of an issue of the rough-and-tumble speech found on the Orthosphere. A few others, however, have not. Hopefully, the rest won’t join them. After all, who is a better theologian? The lay apologist who can explain the energies-essences distinction in simple terms or an archbishop who leads a pro-life march and tells the assembled throngs that we should respect women’s “autonomy” when it comes to terminating the life of innocent babies in the womb? The former can explain the dangers of ecumenism while the latter thinks that all religions are pathways to God.

Who is straightforward? And who is confused?

God has given all Christians gifts. The bishops have theirs. If some of them are worried that things are getting out of hand on the internet, perhaps they could come up with a set of guidelines. What they should not do is criticize these apologists because some of their more well-heeled laymen and academic advisors are offended by them. The days of wagging fingers and clucking tongues are over. Protestantism is dying because it has been feminized while traditional Catholic apologists have been reduced to popesplaining.

Orthodoxy, on the other hand, is patriarchal, historical, truthful, and unapologetic. It would be good for the Leftydox and their enablers in the hierarchy to remember that. And to keep in mind how we got here and where we are going. It was the printing press which made Protestantism possible and by all indications it is the internet which is making it disappear. Thus, we would be wise to heed the words of Shakespeare:

“There is a tide in the affairs of men, which taken at the flood, leads on to fortune; omitted, all the voyage of their life is bound in shallows and miseries. On such a full sea are we now afloat, and we must take the current when it serves, or lose our ventures.” –Julius Caesar, Act IV, Scene III.

We should encourage the bishops to do their jobs. And let the Orthodox apologists do theirs. As for the Orthobros, we should welcome them with open arms.

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94 COMMENTS

  1. How many of the Orthobros are aware of the honoring of Zelensky at St. Nicholas on September 26th? And what will they do about it?

  2. The term “Orthobro” is goofy, and I cringe when I have to refer to it.

    Misplaced Zeal is an old problem, but most of the time something that one grows out of, learning where to actually place that zeal. The internet sphere has created a situation where people remain stuck in the neophyte stage (“cage stage,” “Hyperdox”—-there have been different epithets describing the same thing).

    There is this weird convergence of Orthodox apologetics, Video Game “Gamer” culture,” Internet absurdism (“Meme” culture), Right-wing politics, and the almost Nihilistic cultural iconoclasm of places like 4chan. Those who may only watch Jay Dyer or Buck Johnson (and perhaps catch the occasional Sorin stream) have barely scratched the surface of how dark this stuff can get. When Gigachads and Pepe the Frog start getting dressed up in Orthodox monastic garb, you’re in for a ride.

    It isn’t just the Fordham set that are pushing back against this. Metropolitan Saba has spoken against it. Bishop Irenei of ROCOR has spoken against it. Even priests who are seen as “Orthobro adjacent” such as Father Turbo are distancing themselves (loved his mic drop presentation at the Ludwell Conference). Other priests have addressed it indirectly by criticizing “bad zeal” in general. You have guys like Young Penitent and Craig Truglia repudiating “Orthobro-ism.”

    The backlash has already begun. Fortunately, our Bishops and parish priests now see the issue (“the internet is not real life!” is a prejudice we can no longer afford). It will be handled in the parishes, where it should be. The credible folks like Pageau or Father Stephen de Young will continue on with edifying content. The guys who just hangout on a live stream for 6 hours pan handling for “superchats” (where you can pay money to get your comment highlighted and pinned) and hurling juvenile insults at the Protestant/Catholic apologist of the week won’t endure.

    • The trouble is that this term is becoming a catchall term for any Orthodox content creator who doesn’t adhere to the Establishment way of doing things. In other words, the type of Orthodox happytalk that is put out by the Archons and others like them. Seriously, go to the EP website and the first thing you’ll see are expositions on Canon 28 and why the whole world is “barbarian lands.”

      As for the GOA, they’re getting ready to host a Jewish cocaine addict and comedic pornography at the St Nicholas Shrine.

      Where is Christ in this?

      On the other hand, excellent priests on the internet, such Frs Stephen DeYoung, Jonathan Ivanoff, Hans Jacobse, et al, are pilloried by some in the official corridors because their creativity causes envy to arise among those don’t have the courage to engage the broader culture. As for the ‘Bros themselves, they have found their way into Orthodoxy, with no thanks from the official channels. Sure, they may have issues that need to be addressed, but that’s what the local priests are for. If Fr John X can look the other way because many of the well-heeled laymen in his parish are Freemasons, then he can cut some slack for these young men.

      Let’s not forget, St Paul in his time was an acquired taste.

  3. I have been an Orthodox Christian for close to 25 years. I realized in my second year that I have been lied to for my entire life and that the truth resides only in the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. I rather like the Orthobros and like most groups they don’t do things perfectly. As a long time clergyman and now monastic, I believe that my job should be to encourage and guide these fine young men and their families. We should not over criticize them nor judge. I welcome them with open arms.

    • I was flabbergasted when I first saw a priest reading his Sunday sermon off of his IPhone in church. Discussing the Word of God on the government watchdog internet is off limits as far as I am concerned. Young conservative red blooded “men” truly interested in Orthodox Christianity need to meet privately with a priest.

      The other issue is once they find out what the hierarchy are up to…what a shock.

      • Jane,
        Many priests create outlines for their sermons on their Iphones. I do not find this scandalous as you do in fact I find it encouraging. This demonstrates that the priest took time in preparation. Unfortunately many priests don’t prepare and and being redundant, incoherent and rambling.

        • JK, I appreciate your thoughts on this matter. I do not want to see a priest holding an instrument of AI in his hand. I do not want AI in church. Normalizing AI in church? AI is not my God.

  4. George, thank you for a meaningful, insightful and cogent post. I belong to a GOA parish that now has more converts than cradle Greek Orthodox. We worship in a language people understand as directed by Scripture. Converts have made a significant positive impact on our parish. Families make up the majority of converts in our parish, not orthobrows. Because of the influx of the families, we have outgrown our church structure. However, I do have concerns:
    1.conversion to Orthodoxy but not to Christ. Many of them speak about essence and energies, the nous, logismi, ecumenism but not love and commitment to Christ. An apologetic conversion of the mind is important but far more important is a conversion ot the heart. It has been said that the longest 12 inches in the world is from the mind to the heart.
    2.There is little to no concern for the cradle Orthodox. The zeal of the coverts is questioned but the lack of zeal among the cradle Orthodox is not questioned. It is as if there are 2 standards one for converts and another fot the cradle Christians.
    The church is experiencing a period of opportunity and we must embrace this opportunity God has given us.

    • jk, thanks for this response.

      What I see is what is described in the Book of Acts, in which the “Hellenistoi” (Greek-speaking Jews) were making life uncomfortable for the Palestinian Jewish majority.

      It’ll work itself out.

      As for their emphasis on the arcane minutiae of theology, I for one am glad to hear of it. That said, if that’s all that the ‘Bros bring to the table, then their movement will come to naught. At the same time, we should be aware that your average ethnic parish for too long has been nothing but a culture club, with very little love being evident.

      We should not forget, American Orthodoxy pre-Covid was withering on the vine. In 1928, the GOA had well over 900,000 communicants. By the early 2000s, perhaps 120,000. If that’s not a type of apostasy, nothing is.

      My humble request to the bishops –of all the jurisdictions–is that they keep this datum in mind. Engage these young men. Release funds to create missions. Be creative with the ordination of deacons and priests. Already Antioch has decided that every parish needs one full-time deacon. Some have five or six! As for the OCA, two of our dioceses (Chicago and San Francisco) are instituting three-year on-line pastoral programs for family men.

      I was recently told by a convert who had a calling to the priesthood that (this was when he was in the GOA), which seminary he should attend. This GOA priest told him: “If you want to pastor an American parish, don’t go to Holy Cross, if you want to serve a Greek village then go there.”

  5. Do the Greek monasteries keep a count of how many converts verses cradle Greek Orthodox live in America? Do the monks browse the internet for souls to save? Coming to Christ is a deeply personal calling. When I converted, I did not research how many people were members of the GOA. I did not search online for a group of red blooded females that curse and holler about wearing long dresses and scarves. Egad. Get off the web and do the spiritual work. Visit a priest. It begins there.

  6. Everyone is posting well thought comments. Obviously, I have some points to make that might not agree with all that’s being said, but it comes from a good place.

    I noticed that George mentions all those internet Orthobros, whom I don’t know, never heard of and I will not waste my time with. I don’t criticize anyone who follows these influencers. One name that I googled said that the influencer has been on Alex Jones’ show. Jones is notorious for his extreme right wing views, having gone as far as spreading the rumor that the Newton CT. gun massacre was staged. I imagined the rest of them are cut of the same cloth.

    This is the crux of the problem. These orthobros are not attracted to Orthodoxy because they had a change of mind, gave up their previous lives and are following a new path. Rather, they consider Orthodoxy as an ideology that coincides with their own. To them, its not a huge leap from where they were before they decided to join the faith. They were attracted to the faith because of whom they perceive the faith excludes and not whom it embraces.

    I agree with JK’s assessment that they have converted to Orthodoxy, but not to Christ. Christ’s teachings have nothing in common with right wing politics. By “right wing politics”, I mean opposition to migrants, lack of health care for everyone, avoidance of taxation (give to caser’s what is Caesar’s) injustice for the poor, gun proliferation which results in tens of thousands of deaths yearly, promotion of Christian nationalism, defining ourselves by who we hate, not whom we love and so much more. All of these points are promoted by right wing “influencers”. And they are in direct opposition to Christ’s teachings.

    Having said that, there are some left wing un-Christian positions, such as unrestricted abortion. Bottom line is, when you’re Christian, you can’t be either a leftist or a rightist. You can’t follow the teachings that you agree with, but disregard the rest.

    One other point. The movement into Orthodoxy, probably more pronounced in parts of the Bible belt, even it amounts at 100,000 converts, as George noted, is a minuscule number compared to the 350 million people in this nation. But even the 100,000 in all Orthodox jurisdictions is excessive. Until we have numbers that are based on actual surveys, any amount is speculation.

    We should be cautious in one additional controversy. The Greek language. We all believe that holding the liturgy in all English will be the magic bullet for a torrent of conversions. That is wrong. Greek is the founding language of Christianity. You lose that connection and Greek Orthodoxy would be a small insignificant segment of the myriad of churches in this country. We now pride ourselves of reading the Gospel in its original. Who else can boast of such a privilege. People that are opposed to the Odyssey for not using Greek actors, are more than happy to do away with the Greek language in the liturgy. That makes no sense.

    If the Jews are using Hebrew in their services and the Moslems are using Arabic, why should the Orthodox toss out our founding language?

    • Bob, thank you for your reply.

      I must say though that we are talking passed each other. Your talking points about guns is rather lame. Please refer to Luke 22:36, where Jesus tells his disciples to sell their cloaks and buy a sword. These liberal tropes have become tiresome.

      Do you really believe that America does not spend money on the poor? We spend billions on illegal immigrants while homeless Americans sleep under bridges. Here’s an idea: contact your Representative and Senator and tell them we need to start closing our overseas bases of which there are over 800. We could start with 100/year. All we really need are Ramstein AFB in Germany, Souda Bay in Greece, Diego Garcia and perhaps another dozen or so.

      As for the baggage they bring, we first and-second generation ethnic Americans should look at the beam in our own eyes before we comment on the speck in the eyes of these young men. Arb Elpidophoros spends almost as much time in Greece and Istanbul as he spends in America. And when he’s here, he can’t help but make missteps and whatnot. Marching with BLM? Check. How about he pay a visit to Appalachia and have the Archons and Philoptochos raise money for the indigent who live there; the despair in those precincts is palpable.

      Oh, they’re not Orthodox? Well neither are the people who make up BLM. Neither for that matter are the “bishops” of the AOCC with whom he prayed as St Nicholas Shrine on Juneteenth. When he led the Annual Right to Life March two years ago in DC, he paid a visit to the Ukrainian Embassy. Has he paid a visit to the Palestinian bureau at the United Nations? Has he uttered a peep about the Gaza genocide? Has he dug into his deep well of theological insights to rebuke Amb Mike Huckabee or Pastor John Hagee for their abominable heresies?

      No.

      Rant off. Let’s get back to the Orthobros. As for the fruits of the spirit being love? I agree. Repentance as well. How do you know that these men don’t love? As for repentance, it’s usually these young men who line up for confession after Vespers. How many cradle Orthodox line up for confession at St X Greek Orthodox Church?

      The language issue must be addressed. Did you read what I wrote about the massive decline over the last 100 years in the GOA? I’m sure it’s not much better in the other ethnic jurisdictions. Last year, St George Bulgarian Orthodox Cathedral in Toledo, OH, was sold to the Hindus. What was once a grace-filled sanctuary will now be the abode of demons. (Yes, the Hindus worship demons. I realize that’s going to get the liberals to clutch their pearls but I’ve given up trying to be politically correct. You will too when you get to my age.)

      As for the 100,000 number being miniscule in comparison to our overall population, you are correct. However, we are now LESS miniscule thanks to the explosion of Orthodoxy in America. In any event, when Constantine the Great issued the Edict of Milan, Christians may have made up (at most) 5% of the population of the Roman Empire. Only in Antioch were there appreciable numbers of Christians, they made up plurality at best.

      I don’t know if you’ve been following Fr Stephen Andew Damick on his podcast, but the conservative estimates are that by 2040, there will be over 4 million Orthodox in America. Let’s think about that: Jews make up 2% of the American population but look at how much influence they have over our body politic. There are 17 million Southern Baptists and they are the backbone of our foreign policy re Israel (misguided as it is). We can go on down the line: Mormons, Catholics, etc. The political class has to accommodate their views or at the very least take them into account. Right now, the major issues facing the Assembly of Bishops is the pronunciation of that tasty treat which we Greeks call baklava and the Lebanese baklawa.

      As Napoleon said “quantity has a quality all of its own.”

      If our trajectory continues to grow and if our bishops don’t muck it up, then America can be grace-filled by the presence of hundreds of new Holy Tables being erected in places where there are none. Perhaps American foreign policy and especially domestic policy can be elevated. It was under Constantine.

      Baby steps.

      • George. No need to rant. I consider myself liberal, but I never comment on liberal blogs. Irs boring. I like the exchange of ideas, as on here. You and I have very different opinions and that’s fine.

        Luke 22:36 is used by the gun lobby and it is regurgitated by gun enthusiasts. However, it does not mean what you think. That’s why we need the Greek original to understand the nuance of the gospel. When Christ told His desciples to sell their cloak and buy a sword, it was just before He was going to be arrested. He was fulfilling a prophesy that said :”He”ll come like a thief in the night”. Thieves carried knives. Later on the same night, He was arrested. Peter took out that knife and cut the soldier’s ear. Christ put the ear back and told Peter: If you live by the sword, you will die by the sword.”. Christ later told Anas and Caiafas, that if He wanted to, He would have had legions of angels free him. He did not use them. Nowhere did Christ tell us to arm ourselves with AR-15s and murder kids in a classroom.

        Guns have their place. If you live on the farm, you need a gun. After extreme mental vetting a single barrel shotgun can be allowed for home defense only. What’s happening now does not belong in a civilized society. You can buy guns without being vetted in a gun show. You can store ammo enough to kill thousands. Do you think that Christ approves of such madness? You’re calling it “liberal tropes”. I call it common sense.

        A Christian does not see any difference between homeless and poor Americans and migrants. You are saying that we spend billions on migrants while homeless Americans are neglected. That’s usual talk of right wingers and its nonsense. Money is not taken from one pile and put onto another. America is stingy with philanthropy. Christ never told us to check someone’s citizenship status before we give him aid. Like I said. You can’t be a Christian and be a conservative.

        I agree with you on Elpidoforos and I have criticized him publicaly many times, for not having visited a homeless shelter or a soup kitchen.

        Orthobros should be welcome. However, they have to understand that Orthodoxy is not what they hear on Putin affiliated talk radio. As for the Greek language in the church, I explained further down, that it has a special place in Christianity and should not be abandoned. WE are the only ones who read the Gospel in its original. You dont destroy that to attract converts.

        As for expecting a better America if Orthodoxy becomes more mainstream, I can guarantee you it will not make a bit of difference. Look at all the Other Orthodox countries. They are all a mess. Including Greece. Christ said that He is not of this world. Religion fanaticizes people too much. When Europe was very religious, up to the enlightenment, in the 1770’s, there were continuous wars. Post-Christian Europe, which is what the continent has become is in her 87th year with no wars.

    • Bob, I suggested the possibility that people are being converted to Orthodoxy and not Christ. I did not suggest an absolute. Additionally, the Russians use slavonic, the Romanians use Romanian and the albanias use Albanian. Parenthetically, AB Anastasios refused to use Greek. Do you consider those who don’t use Greek in the liturgy as inferior Christians? Liturgy is meant to be understood as taught in scripture. Preservation of a language is part of the mission of the church.

      • No one is inferior. But the Greek language is special and above all others in Christianity and Orthodoxy in particular. Because during Christianity’s formative period, or at least 350 years, everything was in Greek. The Bible was translated into Latin in the middle of the fourth century. Do you comprehend the difference?

        The way most churches in the Northeast are operating is optimum. The liturgy is split in Greek and English, for which there are books in the pews, to follow along. The Creed, Lord’s prayer, Epistle and Gospel is read in both. The sermon is in English.
        What you people dont understand is that we don’t have to give up the original language, which is essential in Christianity to attract converts. We dont need to change for them. They need to change for us. Jews use Hebrew and dont care if converts accept it. Same as Moslems.

        • Jews prohibit themselves from proselytizing. As for Moslems, they have a missionary impulse. To be honest, I don’t know in what language they celebrate their services.

          In any event, I’ve always held that in any big city in America which has more than five churches, three should be set aside exclusively for Greek, Church Slavonic and Arabic respectively. All others should be in English. Preferable in Elizabethan English.

        • No language is superior. The notion of special languages was promoted by certain Latin and Frankish popes from the 9th century. Sts Cyril and Methodios specifically insisted that no language was above others, and that argument became the basis for naming the Tri-lingual preference (Greek, Latin, Hebrew) a heresy, as well as their determination to develop Slavic liturgically in their missionary efforts with the Slavs. Thus was articulated the Orthodox position of “language of the people” as the guiding principle. Some serve the interests of historical preservation (call it what you will) as essential to the “essence” of Orthodoxy, but you cannot serve two masters, Culture and Christ. As to English being the magic bullet, the OCA established itself in 1970 as American Orthodoxy and they intentionally made English its primary language. Yet it can “feel” more thickly Russian than the Greek Church “Hellenic.” There’s more to it than language alone in terms of our worship being the “work of the people.”

    • The argument assumes the problem lies primarily with those being labeled “Orthobros.” But many would argue the deeper issue is that large parts of the GO Church establishment have drifted spiritually from traditional Orthodox teaching …they see themselves as trying to recover and defend authentic Orthodox Christianity in the face of a Church leadership that, in their view, has accommodated and promoted modern cultural and political ideologies.

  8. The move of people toward Orthodox Christianity in the last forty years, once a limited trend, has now really taken off! It is wonderful.

    I give credit to my deceased first wife Sophia for this term she used to describe our converts: the Blue Jean Orthodox. I suggest that term to those reading this.

    • Zoey, Jay Dyer, whom I do not know, is a cool Orthodox convert? Really? Mental illnesses is rampant nowadays. Who pays these “influencers pretending” to be cool red blooded Orthodox Christians.

  10. Orthobros don’t do things perfectly but show me an orthodox born person that does. Let those that are the perfect ones throw the first stone–surely a holy person would think they are a sinner and not throw any stones. And the rest are not perfect to begin with so they have no place to be critical on anyone and should turn to fix themselves first. There is something noble and sincere about those young men and we should support them and encourage them, not be overly critical of them. I find it fascinating that they are interested in our faith and we should remember that even the apostles did not do things perfectly, after 3 years of having as teacher Christ himself, and this was a full time position. The catechumens receive some part time lessons. No one can teach them everything super fast. It is a learning curve. If the apostles weren’t perfect even when Christ was their teacher, we should realize how limited we all are as teachers for the Orthobros. They learn from the priests and from observing us, and most of us are very far from being perfect.

    • Well, Sandy, to really learn from Orthodox Christians they have to give up being influencers and meet privately with a priest. It’s not about a “group nous” on the web.

  11. You have earned the condemnation and consternation of the The Mystic Ancient and Noble Order of the Veiled Profit Prophets of the Enchanted and Cloudy Realm

  12. Well, from all the responses, I conclude that AI has been normalized in the GOA churches. It has become acceptable. Scriptures teach that God will return right before humanity completely destroys itself. And it won’t be with bombs, drones, or missiles—it will be their souls being taken by Satan, while the foolish refuse to acknowledge their sinful desires and ways. internet red blooded males waiting for? Why aren’t the red blooded Orthobros males writing on Helleniscope yet? Invite them here.

      • JK. State your point clearly not roundabout. The Church has no need of internet blather. You see what is happening to the entire world due to AI. Church and state in America are separate at one time. Let me ask you, when you go to Confession do you take your government watchdog cell phone with you? How about the priest? Does he take his government watchdog cell phone with him to a Confession?

        How many influencer Orthobros are bots? They want tradition? This is a cult formed by whomever to infiltrate the GOA. Time tells all.

        • I think we can all put aside the fantasy that there is a separation of Church and state. If Mike Pompeo interference in our Church was the final nail in that coffin.

          Even the Catholics weren’t spared, when we found out from the FBI whistleblower that agents were infiltration chapels where the traditional Latin Mass was being celebrated. Because that’s where the “extremists” go. You know, those old ladies who wore veils.

          Them.

  14. “Whataboutism” about the Greek Archdiocese or Fordham doesn’t address my point at all.

    The prevalence of this “no enemies to the Right of me” attitude is a big problem. There are serious issues with the online world that many of these young man come from, and all too often I see Orthodox “influencers” winking at it, posting the memes, using the lingo, etc.

    This isn’t “outreach.” It’s enabling. This isn’t just me being old and not “understanding the youth.” This is a train wreck waiting to happen. Fortunately, our priests and bishops (and some of those influencers) are waking up, and addressing it forcefully.

    As laypeople, we should be gentle guides. But that doesn’t mean we turn a blind eye to the rot in our own house because of some foolish and misguided notion of “a united front” against Secularism/Globalism/Heathenism or that “they’ll grow out of it.”

    “The internet is not real life” is a prejudice we can no longer afford.

  16. In defense of preserving and valuing the Greek language, I ask am I the only one who was taught in sermons and in lectures, the blatant INADEQUACIES of ALL translations to date?!

    “The Truth, the WHOLE truth, and nothing but the truth” is an extremely difficult standard to meet when translations are done inadequately and incapably. There are words that do not translate into a different language in a single word, particularly a Greek word that carries thousands of years of meaning in it.

    The Creed, the Lord’s Prayer, and certainly the Divine Liturgy of St John the Chrysostom have been altered (and greatly diminished) due to pedantic (amateurish) translations. And when the Romans translated to Latin, after the Great Schism, their heresies were strengthened and codified.

    I’ve read lately that the most popular KJV translation of the Bible omits Christ’s admonition that there is only one Lord. One wouldn’t expect King James, who was paying for his translation, to weaken his ownership of his subjects, so he chose to leave things out.

    • AK.
      I agree with you. As I’ve re-iterated, the Greek language has a special place in the church. If it wasn’t special, then why weren’t the Gospels written in Aramaic? Or Hebrew. Or Latin? Because Greek, as you’re saying has so much special meanings, that it can not be duplicated in other tongues.

      Of course it makes sense that non-Greek speakers should be spoken to in their own language. Otherwise, they are missing out on what is going on in the liturgy. No one is saying that they have to learn Attic Greek.

      But here’s where us, Greek speakers must protect and save the language of the Gospels as we have saved so many other Greek achievements. For example, medicine still uses the Hipocratic oath. It is in the graduate’s own language, but it is based on the Greek and named after its Greek founder. And of course, we, Greeks still use the original.

      Democracy is still called Democracy, a Greek word. And so on. We are the guardians of the originals, as we guard the Parthenon. Do we let anyone alter it? Of course not.

      Nick. I haven’t heard you opinion. Please, make it known.

      • Am I allowed to enjoy a few days of vacation in Greece? Anyway, there is no debate: we Hellenes have the obligation to preserve the language that gave rise to western civilization. I have said many times that without the cosmopolitanism of post-Alexander era, its tolerance, its ecumenical culture, all bound in Stoic philosophy, there would be no Christianity as we know it. The language is at the center of it. It is so plastic and flexible that expressed all shades of basic concepts and helped distinguish between them.

          • Hellenism – and we are all part of it – is wider than the church. Not as an ethnic group, obviously. But as a concept. Hellenism as an ecumenical force is not limited to the Greeks: “Hellenes are those who share our education”… This language is part of human heritage and must be preserved. Many of us native speakers are naturally bearers of much of this burden. Were it not for biblical Greek (and partly our folk literature – my grandma’s lullaby to me was “Erotokritos”) the language would not pass down to us. We have to return this huge favor by taking the lead in the efforts to preserve it.

      • I fight to preserve the Greek language. I wish I could do more.

        That said, do you not see the irony of argumentation, Bob? The essence of Christianity is that all “kindreds, tribes, and nations shall bend the knee to Jesus.” That means that all peoples have immutable souls, derived from God Himself. Unlike the Kabbalah, which teaches that only Jews have souls from the divine realm while all nations derive their souls from demonic realms, we cannot believe that and be true to the teachings of Jesus.

        Therefore it follows that all tongues should be baptized, God does not hear the prayers spoken in a non-Greek language less so than in Greek. Otherwise, we fall into the same trap that rabbinic Jews have fallen into since the destruction of the Second Temple.

        That being said, ancient Greek should be preserved as well as modern Greek. No doubt about it. The question is which institution is the proper vehicle for doing so? After all, ecclesiastical Greek is about as close to demotic as Middle English is to modern English.

        That of course opens up a whole other can of worms.

        In any event, Nick, enjoy your vacation!

    • AK, do you consider the translations into slavonic, Romanian, Arabic and many other languages faulty and inadequate? Do these people not have the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. Incidentally, the Bible was translated into Latin by St Jerome in the 4th century, well before the great schism. Preservation of the Greek language is important but not the mission and responsibility of the church.

      • JK
        You are correct that preserving the Greek language is not the mission of the church. And you are correct that God hears prayers in any language. However, the issue is not what God hears and understands. Its what WE understand when he speaks to us. The last time that God spoke to people, when the Gospels were written it was in Greek. THAT”S WHY WE NEED TO keep Greek alive. Every generation needs to go back to the Greek to understand the gospel, the epistles and all the other writings.

        Have any one of you heard the term “Lost in translation”? That’s what has happened with the translation of the Bible into other languages from the Greek. No other language has the ability to convey messages and nuance as the Greek. Take the word AGAPE. In English is translated as “Love”. In Greek, there are 4 different meanings (eros, storge, philia,) which would be translated as Love in English. But they don’t mean the same thing. What all you people have to understand is that Greek is needed for that purpose alone. We have the privilege of knowing the original language of Christianity. Let’s not give it up.

        • bob, you say,
          “You are correct that preserving the Greek language is not the mission of the church. ” But neither should the mission of the church be to allow the meaning of the services to change via lame translations (perhaps intentionally).

          I was always taught the imperative of Orthodox Christians was to preserve the Church in its near perfection. Changing the language, from one of the most capable to one of the weakest, would necessitate a very SERIOUS effort, which quite frankly the current clergy are not worthy to undertake—IN THE OVERABUNDANCE OF CAUTION, as they’ve chortled.

          • Very few people understand Greek. Most choirs sing hymns in Greek from English phonetics. This clearly demonstrates the foolishness of the use of Greek. Please remember the words of St Paul in the letter to the Corinthians, it is better to speak 5 words in a known language than 10,000words in an unknown language. Greek should be used where the majority understand it.

          • Jk – I agree. But we have to find ways to teach and preserve Greek. There are many reasons why – including the scientifically established fact that it improves the way the human brain functions… in some European countries high schools are returning to teaching Ancient Greek and Latin.

          • Again, you misunderstand the importance of Greek. Books are there for the ones that don’t understand the Greek. And the gospel, creed, epistle and Lord’s prayer is in both. The liturgy is half and half. The sermon is in English. There is no excuse for anyone to complain about not understanding. We MUST educate converts of the importance of Greek. Not because its another immigrant language. But because it is the foundation of the faith. Where else can they go and hear–even if the don’t understand it– the Gospel as it was written? You are misinformed if you consider Greek in the same level as other immigrant languages.

          • JK,

            Liturgical responses of the people only contain a couple hundred words in Greek, when you examine the “fixed elements” of Divine Liturgy that repeat each time Liturgy is performed…”Kyrie Eleison” is repeated multiple times…almost anyone on the planet can learn a couple hundred new words as a part of Catechism class (if they actually wanted to and made an honest attempt), and then the problem St.Paul referred to goes away. The readings and sermon, however, should be also done in the local language, for sure.

            But the real root cause of the problem here is different…Why is it that at 13 those of the Jewish faith are still “forced” to read in Hebrew? And why did our great grandparents who were not educated at all in ancient Greek resist becoming Muslim under the Ottoman empire, but insisted on attending Church anyway? Also why is it that almost every child in this country is forced to take a “foreign language” at school by the State, and most colleges / universities actually have a foreign language requirement to “pass” before you are considered “educated”? So most people in this American society that we live in, when they “want to”, or when “they have to” suddenly find the energy to invest in learning an entire new language, let alone a couple hundred words in a new language… And why was it that in my University’s ancient Greek classes, it was the “Bible thumping Protestants” who showed up with eagerness to “learn how to read Scripture in the original text”?

            So the problem is elsewhere…not in the quotation of St. Paul… Have we perhaps lost our forefathers’ zeal to preserve our language and traditions, and perhaps find it easy to come up with lame excuses in order to make it easier to bring in additional “units of revenue generation” into our Churches?

      • JK, I am not worthy to judge those translations, HOWEVER, because they have stood the test of time, I fully believe the translations were done well by reverent/learned clergy who absolutely lived the Faith. Centuries ago and “meta fovou Theou”.
        Those who worship in those languages show their understanding of the Faith, QED.

        And when I’ve visited such Orthodox churches, I’ve seen them value any Greek phrases they could include in their services.
        Contrast that to the current impetus to “rid” the GO Church of the Greek language and mandate dogs in church !!!!!!

  17. George: We know that the mainline have abandoned what remnants of Orthodox beliefs they held for modernism. We know this. That has no bearing on how the Holy Fathers teach us to act and speak. We don’t do it perfectly, of course. Tempers flare and people are human. But we should at least orient ourselves TOWARDS that ethos. Not mockingly call our opponents “retards” (which is a hallmark of the toxic online “debate” culture I’ve been speaking of). It gets clicks on Youtube, but it isn’t of Christ. Not allying ourselves politically with unrepentant reprobates, and then attempting to justify it with self-serving references to “imperfect vessels” or gaslighting indignation, pulling the Pope Francis “Who am I to judge?” card.

    Patriarch Pavle of Serbia once said, at the height of the Yugoslav Wars: “I’d rather see Greater Serbia fall, than the Gospel be forsaken.” I feel that way about America. Perhaps that is unhinged fanaticism to some, but there is no “Christian Civilization” without Christians, and I repudiated the minuteman powdered wig fantasy long ago. We have to do better.

    Jane: I’m not referring to AI slop or Bots. I’m referring to the debased behavior that keyboard anonymity can tempt us to. Recently, on Substack, there was a Revenge Porn scandal in the Orthodox community. A woman wrote an article about the difficulties of dating in parishes, calling out “Orthobro behaviors” that she viewed as problematic. Some applauded her, others called out her hypocrisy. But you also had men claiming to be Orthodox heaping upon her vile insults (“whore” was the milder of them). Someone she dated even put intimate photos (her in underwear) on the internet to “highlight her hypocrisy.” Criticizing the article is valid. Calling out her hypocrisy, also valid (within the proper decency). But this went beyond that. It was a HUGE thing, with Rod Dreher, Michael Warren Davis, and others reacting. It was horrific. THAT is what I mean when I say that we can no longer afford the prejudice of dismissing the internet as not real life. This scandal was a trigger for the anti-Orthobro backlash that continues to ripple through online spaces today.

    I’m almost 50. We remember a time before the internet. But these young men are “digital natives.” The internet isn’t an amusing toy or information source as it was for us oldies. For them, it’s integrated into their lives in a way that it isn’t for us (we are grumpy about having to digitize so much, but we still generally retain an “analog” mentality—-They don’t. They grow up in this world).

    This is the pastoral reality our priests face today. Lord, have mercy.

    • Well-spoken words which require contemplation. That being said, in response to Patriarch Pavle’s words, neither Serbia nor Christ were forsaken. Blessedly, it wasn’t an “either/or” situation but as many things within Orthodoxy, “both/and”.

  18. Dave, I hear your words loud and clear. I do not know anything about Orthobros. I learned about it from this article on this blog. I did a small search online and now have found a fake Orthodox Christian church and a fake online monastery. I am still researching my findings.

    As for me, I conclude that Orthobros is a deep state online psyop meant to cause chaos in Orthodox Christianity. Old Patriarch Bart and Archbishop Elpi have certainly caused it. They are the leaders of Orthodox Christian chaos.

    Shall we consider the fact that Bart wants to join with the Roman Catholics? Hmm. And shall we not ponder about that one world religion and the New World “Order?”

    Order out of chaos. It’s happening right before our eyes. Soon many will not afford food or gas or medical care.

    Influencers often are murdered or have terrible accidents. Have you read about the deaths of these people? Who started the role of influencers on the web? Think about this real hard.

    Orthobros is a stink weed invading the GOA. What shall we do? Simple. Do not engage with stink weeds online. Have family discussions about the danger of such groups online. I consider Orthobros – whomever they are and wherever they are online to be predators. Run as fast as you can from them.

    It did not take me long to figure out where I would speak in the web. I left social media quite some time ago. I comment on Helleniscope because I feel safe here. I comment on one other blog because I feel safe there. That’s it!

    (There are nudity apps people purchase in the App Store. San Francisco has banned this. I just learned about this. Grok is involved. iPhones and IPads do NOT belong in church. Learn more about this horror.)

    https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2026/07/apple-google-must-stop-profiting-off-ai-nudify-apps-san-francisco-ag-says/

    What has happened to people? They have no courage! Say NO to whatever AI you do not want in your life. Help the priests! They are caught in this devilish web of AI chaos which includes the Orthobros online wolf pack.

    I am disgusted that the FAKE “godly” red blooded male Orthobros did not find the bastard who posted the photo of the woman in her underwear. These are not real men. They are baboons mocking Our Lord online. They are predator pretenders. This is what I have gleaned from the deep state psyop called Orthobros.

    • Jane,

      I won’t beat a dead horse. All I would say in reply, is that anything the Devil has his hand in is “a psyop.” The Ancient Enemy is behind any and all opposition to God, so I don’t get worked up about connecting any dots or the rabbit holes people tumble down.

      People allow themselves to get distracted by conspiracy talk. Of course it’s a conspiracy. It’s been a conspiracy since the Garden. Some of my favorite stories are the conversion stories of KGB/Soviet State operatives who found Christ in the execution of their “duties” (the one in the book “Father Arseny” is particularly moving). God will not be mocked, nor will He be thwarted. Grace finds a way. I attend Liturgy, Confess, Commune, and live as Christ would have me live. I don’t bother about the shenanigans of our Bishops. That is their sin, not mine. I have red lines, and my Bishop hasn’t crossed them. So I don’t worry about it. I pray. The commemoration of our Bishop at the Liturgy isn’t affirmation of his actions, it is our fidelity to the Office and fervent prayer for the man sitting in the hot seat. Or, as it was in the Army: “You salute the rank, not the man.” (from Band of Brothers).

      • Dave, I feel differently about going about my business while swimming in a sea of sin. To do nothing about the horrors we witness is the sin of indifference. I do not care about conspiracy theories. Lying, cheating, murder, wars for self enrichment, human trafficking?

        See something say something. We see the GOA corruption thanks to people who dedicate their lives to exposing truth in the name of Christ.

        Ex. Apostolos has cameras flashing as he says the liturgy. Not acceptable. God spoke much in the scriptures about courage. We stand up and stop it.

    • Jane, be careful about R&T. Michael Lofton is a former Orthodox Christian who swam the Tiber. Even the Tradcats consider him to be an embarrassment. His popesplaining alone is much cause for merriment.

      That a GOA priest agrees with him (or visa versa) does not speak well of those who criticize the Orthobros.

      So, where are we? Are many of these ‘Bros “right wing”? Only in the same sense that Democrats were right wing during the 1920s when 95% of all Americans were anti-globalists/non-interventionists. Kinda like George Washington and Thomas Jefferson if memory serves.

      • Father Angelo has a lot of edifying stuff on his Youtube channel, and I’ve enjoyed it. I don’t agree with everything he says, but that’s with anybody, isn’t it?

        There is a big difference between the Founding Fathers and guys like Nick Fuentes. An ASTRONOMICAL difference. When Christians (actual ones) make “coalitions” with radicals, it NEVER goes well. Just ask Franz Von Papen and the Catholic Right in Germany, circa 1932. Or the Social Democrats in late Czarist Russia. The list goes on.

        How many times are we going to have to relearn this lesson? I’ve heard some of these “Gigachads” slamming us “pearl clutchers”, saying that “they are the future.” That we have to “board the train” or get left behind (or run over).

        My reply is this: When the Nazis tried to deport Jews in Bulgaria, the Metropolitan himself and many people blocked the train to prevent it (even threatening to lay down on the tracks).

        Sometimes standing in front of the train is the ONLY moral choice.

        • David, regarding your last paragraph, you are correct.

          While I agree with you about Christians “making coalitions with radicals,” I must take issue with you comparing our Founding Fathers with Nick Fuentes. But let’s be honest, our Founding Fathers were traitors in the eyes of the British. As Ben Franklin said: “Gentlemen, we either hang together or most assuredly, we shall hang separately.”

          In any event, by going directly to Nick Fuentes, the critics of the Orthobros unwittingly show the paucity of their arguments. To date, no one has addressed any of the arguments I made in my piece. I still await any reasoned argument, hence my suspicion that all they have is clutching their pearls. This worked in Victorian salons which had a fainting couch but does nothing for preserving a decaying civilization.

          As for your fourth paragraph, I’ve never heard the term “gigachad.” I assume it has something to do with “Chad” as in a cad, a rake or a scoundrel. Correct me if I’m wrong.

  20. George, I appreciate your thoughts. I have no desire to return to that website. There is very little left to trust in our nation right now. We do the best we can as we try to find truth. I have lost trust for the Dems and Republicans. Numerous churches are infiltrated by unsavory groups, government intel, etc. Today, I read that Prager U is infiltrating schools in various states. The article is on Unz Review. Is it true? Sounds true. Is Tucker Carlson getting paid by Prager U? He is mentioned in the article. One must research the author of every article posted on the web. What a mess.

    • Well, all I can say about Tucker is that if he is getting paid by Prager U, he’s not a very good anti-Semite. (Not that he is an anti-Semite; like the pearl-clutchers, anybody who criticizes the Likud government is labeled a nazi.)

  21. “We MUST educate converts of the importance of Greek. Not because its another immigrant language. But because it is the foundation of the faith”

    From the EOB Bible
    Matthew may be a translation or edition of a Hebrew or Aramaic original. This proto-Matthew may have been written by the apostle during and immediately after the ministry of Christ, especially if Matthew-Levi functioned as the ‘scribe’ of the apostolic band. Hence, there may have been an early recording of the Lord’s sayings which became a foundation for the gospel as we have it now in a Greek edition. Papias of Hierapolis (circa 100-120) is a very early witness to this tradition:

    Matthew composed the Logia (or “oracles/sayings (of the Lord)” in the Hebrew tongue and everyone interpreted them as he was able. (Papias quoted in Eusebius—Ecclesiastical History, 3.39.16)

    No…..The greek language is not the foundation of the faith! Christ is! Whoever says that English is a weak language has never read Shakespeare or Emily Dickinson or Herman Melville. To say English is a weak language is absurd. Greek was a common language in the ancient world and was widely used so it makes sense for many of the epistles and Gospel to be written in greek at first. If everyone in the ancient world spoke Swahili than the Gospel probably would have been written in that language first. True I admit that the Greek language should be preserved just as much as Church Slavonic but neither language is essential. What is essential is God and salvation and I don’t need either language to worship God or to be saved.

      • In the beginning yes but I have been an Orthodox Christian for 25 years and a Deacon for the past 12 years. I appreciate the greeks, syrian/lebanese and the russians who have transmitted the faith to me. That being said I have never served at Liturgy/Vespars/Matins/All Night Vigil in any other language but English. Church Slavonic nor Greek is essential in my ministry to the Lord nor to His people. The only essential language for me is English. I always enjoy reading your comments Jane. I may not always agree with you, but I am glad to talk with you today. May your day be blessed!😇

        • Hierarch, I appreciate your response and view. We all know so little about each other’s circumstances and viewpoints except in little comments we all make on the web. It is difficult to communicate why one feels a certain way about anything and everything. We all experience different circumstances which affect our viewpoint in any given moment. And in any given moment a viewpoint can change based on what is taking place in the present moment. I also enjoy reading your comments.
          Many blessings.

      • Nope, absolutely not. I will take what the EOB says over that article any day of the week. I pay attention to Orthodox Christian sources over Evangelical ones. I pay no attention to heretics. A brief search of the authors tells me everything I need to know. I don’t listen to Evangelical heretics, I listen to the Holy Fathers and the Church, that is where truth resides!

        • As long as you are sure that the “PhD’s” that edited EOB and supplied the footnote in question are not relying on any of the “scholarly work” that was influenced by Gustaf Dalman, that’s fine…but Orthodox scholars these days quote and acknowledge Western scholars all the time, so you may want to do some deeper research before you go “all in” here…

          • Again I will go all in on what I get from the Church against any so called modern evangelical scholars any day of the week. I would lay my life down for what the Church puts out. If you read the works of heretics you will become one. I Trust the Church and the information I receive from the Church as Gospel and I am willing to stake and give my life for it. To bring some obscure heretical Lutheran in this conversation is ridiculous. Go in peace but I have other things to do.

        • Many fathers of the church thoroughly studied and translated the writings of the heretic Origen. Fathers like , basil, the 2 Gregories and Jerome were heavily influenced by Origen.Church fathers also studied the writings of heretics for the purpose of refutation.

          • True, but I am not them. I am no Holy Father and I lack the discernment that they have. So, with that being said, I will avoid reading heretical works😇

  22. AI Summary

    is the greek language the foundation of faith
    The Greek language, particularly Koine Greek, is foundational to Christian faith as it served as the medium for the New Testament and early Christian writings, shaping theological concepts and doctrines. Its influence is evident in the transmission of Christian teachings and the development of early church theology.
    Pharos Journal of Theology

    • Jk Yes, we all know Jesus Christ is the foundation of everything. But let us never forget the contributions of the Greeks to spread the Word. Church of the Holy Apostles was constructed in the 4th century AD, marking a significant early establishment of Greek Orthodox worship.

  24. George,

    “Gigachad” is an internet meme with this super chiseled, muscular man in grayscale who represents an exaggerated ideal of hyper-masculinity. They use the imagery as an avatar of sorts to represent “based” thinking or behavior.

    I was in Religious Affairs as the Enlisted Assistant to the Chaplain. I’m a 3rd generation military man (Army vet). I don’t care about salty language or even irreverent humor (hallmarks of combat arms). What I care about are dudes who act like dirtbags, hiding behind icons. It’s stolen valor, but in the Church. It’s repugnant. It’s POS behavior.

    I actually did address your arguments. I said “whataboutism” isn’t an argument at all. I used to read Monomahkos. The tone there and in your piece here is “No enemies to the Right of me,” which I also addressed. This attitude and “argument” is a terrible mistake, and it will blow up in your face. That is why I invoked Von Papen and the Catholic Right in Weimar Germany. You don’t make common cause with degenerate behavior. That isn’t “pearl-clutching.” That’s principle. That is also why I pointed to Patriarch Pavle’s words and the actions of the Bulgarian Church during the war. You do the right thing, even if it doesn’t “help your side.” There is a higher duty.

    My issue, is that honor and integrity still mean something to me. That “the opposition” have none is besides the point. “Fighting to save our Republic” is no justification. It reeks of “we have to destroy the village to save it.” If debasement and blackpill quasi-nihilism are the movers and shakers, then the Republic is already dead and we best tend to our own souls, which DOESN’T include lowering ourselves.

    I still have a soldier’s heart (although I was closer to Beetle Bailey than Dick Winters). The Motto of the US Army Chaplain Corp is “Pro Deo Et Patria” (For God and Country). See which comes first.

    • David, thank you for your service.

      The problem is all of a sudden, the ‘Bros are bad and the Church should not engage them. Yet the GOA (at the very least) has as it’s attitude “No enemies to the Left”. Do you not see the incongruence? While I am as right-wing as JFK (i.e. not an “extremist” except by todays woke standards), I have yet to see the EP, his Phanariote minions, the present Archbishop or the Archons/L100 come to the defense of traditional Orthodoxy.

      Oh sure, we get a lot of pietistic talk about acting in a quietist manner but never about the moral abyss that their overlords in the Establishment have driven this country into the ground. (Remember “Keeping up with the Kardashians” post we put up 3 years ago?

      Is this perhaps by design? Looks like it. Or it might simply be nothing but intellectual laziness. Either way, it’s not spiritually profitable.

      Even worse, it’s self-contradictory. Remember last year when Elpi went to the White House and debased himself before President Trump? When he called him “a new Constantine the Great”? Do you agree with this? I haven’t heard “boo!” from the GOA elite –even though I am 1000% sure that they were biting their tongues when he said that. Heck, I remember when Arb Demetrios went to the White House and said President Obama “was another Alexander the Great.” Again, crickets from the GOA elite.

      At this point, unless we can be used to muck up Orthodoxy (a la being used to create a fake church in the Ukraine) I’m quite sure that the American elite pays us very little heed either way.

      Unless the rest of American Orthodoxy divests itself from this nonsense, we won’t be taken seriously.

  25. Something is terribly amiss when instead of learning Orthodoxy from the Scriptures, the great fathers of the Church, and the more recent champions of Orthodoxy of the last few centuries, theologians and elders, grounded in worship and the love and compassion of Christ and obedience to Him, Orthobros are being championed and becoming the mouthpiece of Orthodoxy. The vile language, disrespect toward others with whom they do not agree, and approach to Orthodoxy through polemics rather than humility and love are far from the Christ I know and worship. We would all do better listening to and learning from mature voices of spiritual giants like the Elder Zacharias of Essex and get back to our true roots by immersing ourselves in Scripture and prayer so that we become more filled with Christ and His Spirit.

  26. George,

    Our Bishops paying tribute to Caesar has long been sad part of their job (and a scandal when they overdo it). I still wince when I see that WWII era photo of an Athonite Monastery that has Hitler’s photo on the wall displayed prominently. Or the Russian Bishops “playing ball” in the Soviet Period. Or the Greek Bishops in the years of the Junta. We could go back in history and fill a booklet with such examples. That’s why “the road to hell is paved with the skulls of bishops.” That is why I disagree with “non-commemorators” or people who want to sever themselves from their Bishop over politics—-“All the things they tell you, do and observe…..but not according to their deeds.” HAH is my Patriarch. I “interact” with him 3 times a year: Christmas, Pascha, and the Indiction when he releases his Encyclicals. Other than that, I look no further than my own Bishop.

    “Traditional Orthodoxy” is doing just fine in the GOA. You wouldn’t know it if all you read was the Orthodox Observer or the Archon newsletter, but I think looking at what is happening OUTSIDE of the Northeast “core” is vital to avoid getting one’s head spun up by this stuff. We pray (commemorate) for our Bishops/Patriarchs, but we don’t need to drink of the cup of iniquity, should they be imbibing. That is a key difference Orthodoxy has with Catholicism: The feet of the laity is a POWERFUL vote and voice. That is why the Renovationists failed. That is why the OCU is withering on the vine. There is no Liturgy without the people.

    This isn’t “quietism.” My own spiritual father was an old Greek priest who knew St. Porphyrios and was of his spiritual school. That is the Orthodoxy I received, and is the lens with which I view these matters.

    As Jane said also, you clearly feel differently. Like Sts. Paul and Barnabas, sometimes disagreement happens in this way. I won’t go on about it. I will end with this: It isn’t a matter of “casting out” the Orthobros. No priest I’ve heard has advocated that. It’s about formation, and not allowing them to continue in behavior that is bad for the soul or scandalous to others. Perhaps you see them as political fellow travelers. I see them as young neophytes in need of correction, with a capital C.

    The Dormition Fast approaches. May the Mother of God guide us all.

    • David, wise words. That doesn’t mean we can’t critique our bishops when they make fools of themselves.

      • Accountability is important, no doubt about that. With that said, Christian fraternal correction has to be FRATERNAL. One has to actually love the person they are admonishing. Love and Contempt do not mix. I think this is where the grey area is, and where there is the most danger for us laity. The Ancient Enemy loves “grey areas.”

    • Marcos, your response about language confounds me. Apparently, you believe that catechism classes should be transformed into Greek language classes. Let’s forgo learning about the sacrements, the creed, the councils so that we can learn how to conjugate verbs in Greek. Converts need to learn about the faith and importance of salvation and new life in Christ. You are delusional to believe to believe a few Greek lessons will lead to one understanding the liturgy. My first language was Greek and I can not pray the Lord’s pray in Greek, certainly I can recite it. Worship needs to be done in a language people understand just as St Paul states and Sts. Cyril and Methodios understood and practiced.
      On another matter, please remember the words of our Lord to the Pharisees -you strain at the eye of a gnat and you forget the weighter matters of the law justice mercy and faith.

      • JK,
        Either you are angling to achieve recognition in the “yellow journalist community”, or you have some reading comprehension challenges of your own to sort out. Either way, we have to waste our time again to point out that what you interpret from the comments above is not what was stated…
        I mentioned “a couple hundred words that are repeated in every Liturgy”. Apart from Κυριε ελεησον, and Παρασχου Κυριε some of these repeatable words are quite important in their Theological meaning, and were placed intentionally by the Church Fathers in Liturgy as a result of battles against heresy… “Πατέρα, Ὑιόν καί Ἅγιον Πνεῦμα, Τριάδα ὁμοούσιον καί ἀχώριστον” is one example, but there are multiple others. “Omoousios” is a very important word, as you know, and it’s equally important that those coming in from heretical faiths get a THOROUGH education on the origin and meaning of these words, because otherwise we risk future schisms and heresies to emerge…Is it that hard for a couple hundred words to be studied as PART OF A CATECHISM curriculum? Nobody argued that they shouldn’t be Catechized in English…but they should learn these couple hundred important “repeated” words in Divine Liturgy…

        • Do you actually think that after a catechism introduction series one will be able to understand the Sunday apolotichia or be able to pray the Lord’s prayer in Greek.

          • You bring up two examples that totally miss the mark (which highlights how attentive to detail you really are these days):

            1) Apolytikia are considered “variable” not “fixed” elements of the Liturgy. Furthermore, since you are specifically mentioning Sundays, normally each of the 8 Apolytikia for Sundays is repeated at least twice on the day it’s “tone of the week” falls, and in North America it is customary to say it in both languages.

            2) Most parishes in N. America already recite the Lord’s Prayer in both languages.

            Now, it would be interesting for you to tell us which of the many English versions of Apolytikia and the Lord’s Prayer that are heard throughout the several Orthodox Jurisdictions in N. America is the most accurate one when compared to the Greek original? How do you explain to converts that there are all these different “versions” in English?

  28. Marcos, additionally, what do you do with all Greek cradle born Orthodox who can’t pass your Greek language requirement. Adding faithful to the church is not about money as you suggest but rather about responding to the great commission.

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