By Lambros Karpodinis
In the latest Orthodox Observer, we read the following: ”The Ecumenical Patriarch lamented once again that the Russian government is waging an unjust war against its “Orthodox neighbor” Ukraine, with the full approval of the Moscow Patriarchate, which has even blessed the conflict as a “holy war.” His All-Holiness has warned on numerous occasions that the concept of a “holy war” is incoherent, and that there can never be such a war.”
There is no doubt that no war is holy. The conflict in Ukraine has been an embarrassment for Orthodoxy, not only because two majority-Orthodox nations are sending their young people to kill one another, but also because sharply different narratives exist about whether the war is justified. This dissonance has, in some ways, been absorbed into today’s culture wars, with one side presenting itself as a defender against “wokeness” and as a champion against Pride parades. Many in America are drawn to that rhetoric, which has led mostly young men to join the Russian Orthodox Church for its perceived “conservative” values.
The patriarchate has been caught up in this maelstrom, being blamed by some for granting autocephaly to the Ukrainian church, thereby giving an excuse to Putin to invade Ukraine.
Orthodox churches have been divided along ethnic lines. We see it here in America. Every European Orthodox nation has its own bishop, overlapping other Ethnic Orthodox churches. That’s uncanonical.
This situation dates back to the fall of the Byzantine Empire. When the Church of Constantinople was part of a thriving empire—the heir to Rome—it had surpassed even the Latin Bishop of Rome in power and prestige.
The incursions of Muslim conquerors, along with the weakening and eventual dissolution of the Byzantine Empire, also called the primacy of the Church of Constantinople into question. This was especially true for Russia, which was rising in influence and included the largest body of Orthodox believers among the ethnic Orthodox churches.
A few years after the fall of the Byzantine Empire, Moscow declared independence from the Patriarchate of Constantinople, citing the perceived influence of the Sultan, with whom Russia was in almost constant conflict. The Ottomans were not inherently anti-Christian; they respected Christianity unless their spiritual leaders called for a “holy war.” In times of peace, the patriarch kept his flock obedient to the empire, while the Sultan focused mainly on collecting taxes.
Russia’s break with the Patriarchate of Constantinople signaled a trend that continued with Greece’s independence from Turkey, followed by the rest of the Orthodox nations formed in the mid-to-late 19th century.
Every Orthodox nation that wants to consider itself truly independent feels obligated to have its own independent church. Ukraine, wanting to break free from Russia, asked Patriarch Bartholomeau to canonically recognize an independent Ukrainian Orthodox Church, thereby breaking communion with the Moscow Patriarchate. Of course, that didn’t sit well with Putin, who used the church break, plus rumors of violence against Russian Orthodox followers, as an additional pretext to invade Ukraine.
The invasion has taken a terrible toll on life, with over a million people killed and about as many injured. As we see at the beginning of this essay, the Moscow patriarchate is claiming that Putin is fighting a “holy war”, against the Godless West, thereby attempting to take the high ground in people’s conscience
And we agree that no war is holy.
However, the patriarchate permitted Saint Nicholas shrine to hold a fundraiser, honoring Zelenskyy—who is Jewish. Holding an event organized by a Greek Orthodox church under the patriarchate is a de facto recognition of the honoree as the “good guys.” Whether he is or not, war is a bloody affair. Both sides commit atrocities against civilians.
A church has no business taking sides and honoring one combatant. Let politicians do that.
The invitation said Zelensky is a “most worthy recipient who illuminated the path forward in times of great challenge,” leading his country’s defense in its war with Russia.””
The fundraiser alone is a veiled attempt at profiting from the killing of millions. According to the invitation, $ 1,500 for the “basic economy, or a quarter of a million for first-class seating, plus lots of extras enjoyed by the big donors, who obviously will look down at the “poor nobodies” who could afford only $1500 for a plate of food, which fundraiser will go towards St Nicholas Shrine.
None of the proceeds appear intended for the widows or orphans of either nation. Saint Nicholas Shrine has been used as a vehicle for theft, enrichment, and deception of the faithful, including those who contributed to its construction. We remember the reported $80 million cost overrun and the disappearance of much of that money into various pockets. The organizers have not been transparent about where the proceeds will be deposited, how the funds will be distributed, or who will benefit. Given that history, I would not trust them with $5, let alone such large sums.
They now appear to be selling friendship with Saint Nicholas for $25,000, suggesting that anyone who does not contribute is not truly his friend. If the patriarch wants to be regarded as the leader of all Orthodox Christians, including Russians, he must condemn all violence and war, even when he believes one side is right and the other is wrong. Let the United Nations determine responsibility. Christ did not recognize enemies, only brotherhood. The Church, as the body of Christ, should uphold that ideal.
Unfortunately, this sentence is rife with false bias, so it cannot remain as is without a commensurate response:
“…Ukraine, wanting to break free from Russia, asked Patriarch Bartholomeau to canonically recognize an independent Ukrainian Orthodox Church, thereby breaking communion with the Moscow Patriarchate….”
Bias because you appear to forget the fact that in 2014 there was a coup in an area that is not dominated by ethnic Russians to overthrow a government and install a “pro-Western” one. The reason the “geo-political overlords” resorted to a coup is because that nation has about a 50-50 split between “pro” and “anti” Moscow inhabitants (with more “anti” in the West, and more “pro” in the East). Therefore, you are introducing non-factual bias by presenting “the Ukraine” as a homogeneous society whose entire citizen base was seeking the “same outcome”…nothing can be further than the Truth, and as long as you ignore the fact that this is actually more of a “civil war” (that serves as a proxy war between NATO and Moscow) than a “war between 2 “distinct” disputing nations”…as long as you keep ignoring this fact, you will unfortunately only add to the misinformation that is out there already.
We have also repeatedly stipulated in multiple Helleniscope threads that almost every “tomos of Autocephaly” in years past has intentionally included the words “to be accepted by a future Pan-Orthodox Synod” in the body of the text. In the case of Poroshenko and Epiphanios, prior to the issuance, we had a “Pan-Orthodox” rainstorm of letters to the Phanar warning to Bartholomew “not to issue the tomos”, and because he didn’t listen to the “voice of Pan-Orthodoxy”, we now we see the “Bartholomaic Epiphanios Schism” expanding into Autocephalous Churches where “some” bishops recognize, and “many” bishops “do NOT recognize” this action (until a Pan-Orthodox Synod decides)…
And by the way…there always was an Orthodox Church in the Ukraine…Ounouphry was and still is the Metropolitan. Granting a tomos to a separate faction that has been declared “Schismatic and Canonically Deposed” (twice by Bartholomew himself) has nothing to do with Orthodoxy or expansion of Orthodoxy. In fact it is an “illegal congregation” (παρασυναγωγη) as defined by St. Basil in his 188th letter. And “entering into Communion with such a παρασυναγωγη naturally results in Schism. You can’t “expand” by “adding” or “joining” deposed Schismatics (unless the legitimately repent). Although, in this case perhaps you can argue that the same way Constantinople “expanded” its “ranks” with the likes of Belya and Thephan (who recited the Filioque at his ordination) probably set the stage for adding additional “ecclesiastical rejects” to the pile (deposed rejects like Philaret and his gang, who Bartholomew signed his name twice in letters to Moscow acknowledging they were legitimately deposed)…
Patriarch Kyrill has put the full weight of his pastoral and ecclesial authority in declaring the Ukraine War “holy,” and speaks of it in the language of theology and End Times (a book was just published doing that in a systemic and official way).
The Moscow Patriarchate views itself as the “restrainer of Anti-Christ,” the Katechon. Prelest horrifically fused with Russian Nationalist politics. The St. Nicholas Dinner is black-tie political schmoozing with the usual suspects. Not even close to being the same thing (although the latter is also repugnant).
If someone talks about their humility, they are not humble. If a Patriarch declares his Church as “the Katechon,” that is the quickest way to know that THEY ARE NOT, and the one saying it is spiritually deluded. Sergianism/Kyrillism has infected the Russian Church like cancer.
Both Moscow and the Patriarchate have placed themselves at “the heart of Orthodoxy.” Moscow with its distortion of eschatology, the Patriarchate with its exaggerated perception of itself (“First without Equals”).
NO. OXI. NYET.
There is a big difference: the West chose to put Orthodoxy at the center of this crisis in Ukraine. How do we know? Samuel Huntington in his “Clash of Civilizations” told us over 30 years ago… Yes the book that is the “Gospel” of Western foreign policy makers and the CIA. Moscow is in defence in this situation and if you do not consider this fact, your argument loses its meaning.
I appreciate comments on my essays. However, because my essays are aimed at a broad audience that doesn’t care for minute details, I avoid boring them.
Having said that, you have some of your facts wrong. The 2014 Maidan revolution was a grassroots effort by Ukrainians that were angered by Yanukovych’s last minute refusal to sign association agreements that would expand political and economic ties with the EU after meeting Putin. As many as 800,000 Ukrainians held a protest against the decision to abandon the EU aspirations. Such turnout, in the freezing Ukrainian winter can only be attributed to the people’s anger and disappointment at being kept in Russia’s sphere
Protests extended into the winter months, with increased casualties among the protesters. The situation had degenerated into an out of control revolution. Eventually, Yanukovych accepts an EU-brokered deal that promises early elections and the implementation of a unity government that is to include members of the opposition. But after the legislature strips him of his presidential power, Yanukovych flees to Russia.
Ukraine has no history of democracy. Don’t expect them to be the British of Eastern Europe. They were dominated by the Russians, who also have no democratic background. Peaceful change of power is not in their culture. However, what country in their right mind would choose to stay in the Russian orbit, instead of joining the EU and NATO? If Russians themselves had the choice, they would vote for the EU in a heartbeat.
As far as you insisting that the current Ukrainian war is actually a “civil war”, because you want to label it so, I disagree. Ukraine is a UN recognized nation since 1945. Who are you to tell them they’re not Ukrainians but they’re Russians. And BTW. A nation that declares its independence is not expected to have 100% agreement on its goals by its citizens. The American revolution was composed of a minority that were ready to break away from England. Greek independence was marred by civil conflicts, with such heroes as Androutsos and even Karaiskakis having gone to the Turkish side during the struggle—Karaiskakis eventually became a patriot—.
As for a pan-Orthodox synod ever taking place, is impossible. The Moscow patriarchate won’t take part. You know that and yet, you fail to acknowledge it. So, there is no use for Ukrainians to wait until such a date which will never come, to have their own church, as all other Orthodox nations have theirs.
There were dissenting voices on the recognition of the Ukrainian church by Bartholomeau. So what? The decision was up to the synod that recognized the new Ukrainian church. There are differences of opinion in any new venture. Moving forward should not stop until every one agrees.
You keep rehashing the tales of the main stream media ignoring the facts on the ground before the 2014 coup at Maidan square. The moment you call a CIA-led coup a “revolution” – while we all know Vicky Nukand and Jeffrey Pyatt was on the ground along with hired snipers – the discussion hits a wall.
I have asked you to open your eyes and read the “Clash of Civilizations” by Samuel Huntington – the real Gospel on Ukraine in the State Dept. And the West. You refuse. Even Kalmoukos the “theologian” of TNH referred to in a positive manner it after he saw it in my articles ten times. But you “know better”.
And you keep talking about “UN recognition of Ukraine” at the same time as the Ukro-Nazis have violated every UN human rights principle to the extreme.
This is not a debate Bob – it’s looking yourself in the mirror. You can do this alone – as you will be watching in the next few weeks and months on your mainstream cable “news” the total defeat on the ground of the western hegemonic strategies.
Well said, Nick. There was nothing “organic” about the Maidan coup. BTW. those “hired snipers” were Georgian mercenaries.
Leave it up to George. Any conspiracy theory in the abysmal depths of the internet sewer, he’ll fish it out. There is no proof of such claim as he’s making. It was broadcast on OAN, which channel is the Bible to the conspiracy-minded warriors, while no evidence presented. Here’s the finding on George’s theory.
“The claim that Georgian snipers participated in the Maidan events is a conspiracy theory and is not supported by evidence. The OAN documentary relies on unverified and dubious sources, including accounts from former espionage convict Tristan Tsitelashvili, which casts doubt on its credibility.””
This is the source of the shootings being done by other than the police:
The first suggestion that the snipers might be pro-Maidan supporters came from a leaked phone conversation published by Russia Today — which is funded by the Kremlin
Who thinks that a Russian sponsored “news story” is legitimate?
Bob, when you have in the same square mile Victoria Nuland, “distributing cookies” to the protesters (since when State Dept. employees are allowed to take part in ANY anti-government protests anywhere on earth?) and Geoffrey Pyatt inciting, you do not need to dig much deeper: IT WAS AN INCITED by western intelligence COUP AND SNIPERS – WHO BY DEFINITION ARE HEAVILY TRAINED AND ARE NOT EASY TO FIND – WERE PICKED BY WESTERN INTELLIGENCE AND PLACED THERE AHEAD OF TIME WITH SPECIFIC DIRECTIONS.
If you see this as a “conspiracy theory,” it is your problem – and says a lot about who you are: “ΞΕΡΟΚΕΦΑΛΟΣ” AT A MINIMUM, TO PUT IT SIMPLY.
I used the word “butt hurt” in a previous article on Ukraine specifically for people like you… Unfortunately, with the Russian onslaught on Ukraine taking place now, a stronger word will be needed… Don’t worry, I grew up in the streets of Piraeus and my vocabulary when it comes to all shades of “butt hurt” is very competent… Ha…ha…
Nick. Dont you worry either. I grew up in the streets of Jersey City in the 70’s. I dealt with all kinds and I know how to give as much as take. I was hoping we wouldn’t get to that place. You told me yesterday on your email that we should keep it civil. I dont understand why you take it so personal. You subscribe to all kinds of conspiracy theories, which I do not. And I dont plan on starting now. And I am glad that it says a lot about who I am. It also says a lot about who you are. And its not what would make you proud.
And you said that you’re against the word but-hurt. But you’re using it against me. I can assure you that my butt does not hurt. The ones who kissed Trump’s butt, got a big one up their butt and they hurt.
I dont even respond to your posts. Why do you have to respond to mine, when they’re not directed to you? Grow up, will you? Your blog is too stupid without my well sourced opinion. If you invite people to comment, be a good host. If I were you and I believed Putin before I believe Western sources, I would move to Russia, to with my buddy. Talk is cheap. Live where your heart leads you to.
This is what the truth is about CIA involvement in Maidan:
Recurring pro-Kremlin disinformation narratives painting the 2013-14 Ukrainian revolution as a coup d’etat that was artificially orchestrated by Western intelligence. The US did not initiate nor financed the 2013-14 Ukrainian revolution. The demonstrations which began in Kyiv in November 2013 – called “Maidan”, or “Euromaidan” – were a result of the Ukrainian people’s frustration with former President Yanukovych’s last-minute U-turn when, after seven years of negotiation, he refused to sign the EU–Ukraine Association Agreement and halted progress towards Ukraine’s closer relationship with the EU as a result of Russian pressure. For more cases about the Euromaidan protests, see here. The protesters’ demands included constitutional reform, a stronger role for parliament, formation of a government of national unity, an end to corruption, early presidential elections and an end to violence. See previous disinformation claims alleging that plans to close biolabs in Ukraine made US start supporting Euromaidan, Euromaidan was a coup by special services of foreign states, and that the US has recognised Euromaidan as a coup controlled by US oligarchs.
Bob, many people here are scratching their heads to find out why it is so easy for you to eat up the so-obvious Western media propaganda and so hard to accept some real facts. Nobody disputes what happened in Maidan Square in 2014 anymore… Chancellor Merkel and President of France Hollande came out and said they signed the Minsk Agreements to fool Russia and gain time to re-arm Ukraine. What don’t you understand? Why do you keep drinking the “koolaid”?
Why do you keep fact-checking with Google and various A.I. sites? These are all pre-arranged with the right algorithm…
I am raising my hands; I don’t know how to treat you anymore… That’s where the “butt-hurt” goes… I am not alone… Many of us wonder why you (presumably consciously) are blinging yourself…
I’m not trying to convince anyone on here to change their mind. No one should try to convince me to change mine. We’re not important. What difference would it make if I converted to your thinking, or if you converted to mine? None whatsoever. So, why take it personally? Exchanging ideas is part of growing up. Rejecting ideas that don’t match your own is a sign of immaturity. Helleniscope is richer by having such an exchange. Look at what went on before I became a regular. Everyone piled on whatever the conspiracy of the day was, without offering a different perspective. What good is that? Look where it got you. You’re paying a dollar more a gallon of gas, plus extra taxation for the tariffs, all because you all fell for a circus barker, that sold you the Brooklyn bridge.
I am sorry you fail to understand that a good debate depends overwhelmingly on both sides accepting the facts. What’s the point of discussing propaganda and other “fresh air” coming out of the mainstream media and the so-called “presstitutes”?
Bob,
After Patriarch Bartholomew’s power grab in Ukraine, other primates called for a Pan Orthodox Council. This includes the late Archbishop Anastasios of Albania and Patriarch John of Antioch. Moscow has always said it supports the convening of a council.
Patriarch Theophilos of Jerusalem convened a gathering of Bishops in Amman in 2020. Both Patriarch Kyril and Metropolitan Onuphry of Kiev were present. The Russians expressed appreciation for the efforts of Patriarch Theophilos and hoped another effort for a council would be made.
The only opposition to a council comes from Constantinople because Patriarch Bartholomew knows he will not be able to impose his will on the other Churches.
The Ukrainian Orthodox Church of Metropolitan Onuphry has twice as many faithful as the fake “church”. This is a Church that is fully apostolic with valid mysteries and ordinations. They never asked for autocephaly.
The only people demanding autocephaly for Ukraine are the war criminal and Christian Zionist Mike Pompeo, Petro Poroshenko, Zelensky, and the defrocked and unordained psychopaths in Ukraine masquerading as bishops and priests.
The interests that united to establish the illegitimate “church” in Ukraine are outside the Orthodox Church and care nothing about its divine mission, its apostolicity, or the holy canons.
Bob,
The riots occurred in Kiev, which is in the “West”, where “pro-West” / “Pro-Europe” populations dominate. “Grass roots” in a “pro-Western Ghetto” like Kiev is not the same as “Grass roots” in the “Donbass”…
Therefore, from a “broader Ukrainian territory perspective”, nothing in the 2014 coup was “grass roots”, as the bloody crackdown in the Donbass following the coup clearly showed. Kiev decided to start “crushing” the “pro-Russian” populations, (which easily comprised about 50% of it), and even forbid them from using their mother language via legislation…that is not “grass-roots”. The “facts” you insist on are regurgitations of non-factual propaganda that defy all reality on the ground. And this propaganda ironically falls into justifying the historical “Uniate vision” that is being executed on the ground, including and not limited to the forceful takeover of the Kiev Caves and other churches & real estate, the persecutions against Ounoufry’s clergy, including imprisonment, torture, murder, etc
Why would you turn a blind eye to all these facts, and the actual population breakdown & distribution in what is today “Ukrainian territory”, and not present a more accurate view in your essays, if indeed they are intended for a broader audience? This is indeed perplexing, especially since the roots of corruption stemming from the Ukraine branched out to the triangle of “Geopolitical overlords – GOARCH – Constantinople” with those “Poroshenko visits”, and the “Zelensky dinners / honorings / awards” that we are witnessing….we already know your position on the “honoring of Zelensky” already, and we agree it is abhorrent, but the “facts” you present in the essay are sending very conflicting messages on that position, by justifying the events that lead to these “honorings”…
Orthodoxy is a soft power element (a very powerful one) in Eastern Europe. Moscow knew this too, which is why they maintained the KGB cassock contingent in the former Warsaw Pact as a lever of control. The Catholic Church was a power element in the Spanish Empire, and Protestant Missionaries were the tip of the spear for global Americanization (it is why international Evangelicals are very “American”).
This is not new. Nobody needed Huntington to point this out. “Meta-History” (like Spengler, Dawson, and later Chomsky, Zinn, Fukuyama and Huntington) is….how to put this politely? Reductionist Nonsense.
But it makes for great Youtube fodder. It reminds me of when Hayek and Von Mises were all the rage 20-25 years ago.
That still doesn’t address my point. The Moscow Patriarchate has declared that Russia is the Katechon. The restrainer of Anti-Christ. The main character in the struggle before the Second Coming. This dovetails with the Third Rome stuff, which they cleverly deny teaching using the classic Catholic “well TECHNICALLY, it isn’t a doctrine” while it permeates iconography, the hagiography of the Last Czar (complete with Marble Emperor level rabbit holes and folklore) and the Church calendar. Disingenuous is too kind a word to describe the obfuscation.
This is Prelest, full stop. There is no justification for this. As bad as “First without Equals is” (and it’s bad)…This is….madness. It’s offensive. What happens when Russia makes a deal with the Anti-Christ (AKA “The West”)? Where is that rhetoric going to go?
If the Patriarchate has distorted Orthodox ecclesiology, then Moscow has distorted Orthodox eschatology. I am horrified by all of it. There is no justifying it. The Russians are wrong. PERIOD. Whatever else one thinks of the Ukraine issue.
Russia as a country and as a civilization has been on the defensive not only during 70 years of communism but especially after that time, since 1990.
1) Putin asked for Russia to enter NATO, and he was flat out rejected.
2) The West sent an army of “Judeo-Christian” preachers – headed by none other than Billy Graham – to “convert” Russians to “televangelism/Protestantism”. The Russians couldn’t stand listening to their crappy “Christianity,” and they left or were kicked out in some form or another.
3) After this failed, the West sent another army of NGOs to invade Russian culture and “Westernize” it and cause regime change. They were also kicked out.
Why did the West do that? Most serious analysts agree – and it was even stated by some top American and EU officials – that they wanted to split Russia, aiming to steal its enormous mineral wealth. Do you really think everyday Russians don’t share this feeling? Putin and Kirill and all Russian leaders react to this outside attack.
4) At the same time as all of these attacks were happening, NATO started a massive expansion Eastward, and finally created the wars in Georgia and in Ukraine.
Sorry, but if we don’t take into account that Russia as a country, as a civilization and of cource as a Church is under attack, a deliberate attack by the West, perfectly proposed, described, and analyzed in the “Clash of Civilizations” by Huntington (Please read pages 36-37 – it describes in great detail exactly what is going on in Ukraine) then we are venturing in an exercise in futility, leading to nowhere. IT IS SO BASIC.
You can talk about Christian eschatology and the Russian Church projecting itself as the “Katechon” – but the reality is that Russian Christianity/Church/State is the last major Christian obstacle against the Western Hegemony, against the Globalists.
Again, discussing countries like Russia and Greece, and their ecclesiastical or religious life, you have to consider this defensive necessity. In the Greek islands today, people distrust and publicly “hate” the “Franks” more than they do the “Turks”. Why? Because they still have a strong memory of their barbaric invasion almost ten centuries ago and attempt to overtake their country and “culture”.
If you do not take this “defense” into account, you are missing the whole point. Having grown up in Greece, I completely understand this defensive posture – which is impossible to fathom for someone who grew up behind the safety of two oceans in America. Not sure where you grew up – but this is applicable widely – and I am not the first who stated it…
As all of the above is taking place, Russians absolutely love American folk culture. Various reports, including by Tucker Carlson and many others recently, say that when you walk through Moscow malls, you feel, in many ways, like you’re in an American mall. While in America and Europe, we are dealing with “cancel Russian culture” and Russophobia so extensive that only one word can describe it: Evil. Thank God the Metropolitan Opera of NY reversed its policy last year, so we can enjoy the “Nutcracker” during Christmas once again…
BOTTOMLINE: It is a healthy phenomenon that societal institutions react to BARBARIC outside ATTACKS. Some aspects of this reaction may be superficial or have stronger “doctrinal” effects, but in my opinion it is too early to determine. I am aware of the Moscow Patriarchate’s previous tendency to impose its doctrines. At this moment, when Constantinople and Rome are largely sided with the globalists and their “woke” culture, it is they who do not defend the essential doctrines of Christianity and not Moscow.
Nick, if I may add to your answer: one of the demonic ways in which the West and particularly the US, uses soft power to weaken an adversary is “religious freedom”. Our State Dept cries bloody murder because those wascally Wussians won’t allow fake religions like the JWs and the Mormons to proseletize in Russia.
Think of it: we are willing to send young American men to go die in battle because we believe in “religious freedom.”
It’s abominable.
P.S. After Billy Graham went to Russia in 1988 to celebrate the 1000 year anniversary of the baptism of the Rus’, he came back with an appreciation for Orthodoxy. His son Franklin also has been to Russia and spoken with Russian prelates.
Nick.
1) Putin insists that he asked Bush senior to join NATTO, but nothing came out of it. There was also a Western official who also suggests that Putin asked to join, but not through the normal application process, but through “direct invitation”, supposedly to elude NATO’s insistence on democratic government and a civil society. It is possible that it was discussed, as many ideas were passing back and forth after the collapse of the Soviet era. Butt also, since such a long time has passed, it could be selective memory
Either way, there never have been documentary evidence of formal negotiations or a binding proposal recorded in alliance archives.
Russians are experience negotiators. If they really meant to join NATO, they would have demanded a written application, and followed the proper procedure.
2) The West did not send evangelicals to convert the Russians. Evangelicals went on their own accord, as they go to Africa, China and other non-Christian countries. Evangelicals consider Orthodox as semi-Christians, due to our emphasis on liturgy, instead of only preaching the Gospel. Methodist ministers went to Greece after the revolution, hoping to convert Greeks. It didn’t go well either. But now, there are evangelical churches in Greece.
3) NGO’s (non-governmental organization) does not belong to a Western government, as the title implies, so, they could not have been sent by a country. Westernizing a country, whatever that means is not forced on anyone. Non-Western countries seek it and adopt it. Look at Japan, China Korea, even Vietnam. They were Westernized and even though China and Vietnam are supposedly communist, they’re capitalist to the bone.
4). NATO started a massive extension eastwards you say. Can you show us if any of the former Warsaw pact countries were forced to join, or did they join on their own volition? If they joined voluntarily, Putin has no right to complain. And can you explain how the West started the war in Georgia and Ukraine? Who invaded whom? Were you there and saw Western soldiers invading Russia? How can you say these nonsense with a straight face?
Bob – please keep researching, googling and using A.I. You are heading in the right direction.. Eventually you will open your eyes and uncover the truth..
I will try to help you along occasionally and I will make educational and informative posts… in the meantime keep reading… Sorry the day doesn’t have enough hours for me to explain to you why after the fall of communism it was up to America and NATO to decide how fast to expand eastward… these are truly kindergarten questions. There are plenty of online places to help.
David,
In my opinion, had Constantinople been more authentic in Faith and more collaborative vs. combative with Moscow, the prelest you are referring to would not have been given any fuel for growing… (remember the ridiculousness in 1997 when Hong Kong was united with China, and Bartholomew claimed that all of China was his, ignoring the presence of St. John of Shanghai and others in a country that bordered Russia?)
Do you think it is coincidence that Bartholomew ALSO had disputes with Antioch, Jerusalem, and even ceased Communion with Christodoulos of Athens over “territorial and worldly” matters?
Show me an ounce of spitituality and “brotherly solidarity” in all of that legacy of “land-grabbing” that Constantinople has continued to perpetrate at the expense of “sister Churches”, including this “land-grab” with the Ukrainian “tomos”…Bartholomew had already signed twice in 1992 and 1997-8 in letters to Moscow that he agreed Kiev was Moscow’s territory…
And speaking of “land-grabbing”, if it weren’t for Meletios Metaxakis (the “Great-Godfather” of today’s “synidcate”), GOARCH would have been aligned to the Church of Greece (and maybe Cyprus), and not Constantinople…Almost all original immigrant clergy in N. America came from the Church of Greece, and this would align with the model that every other Orthodox jurisdiction had for their diaspora in N. America…only imagine “what if”…but we are digressing.
I am not absolving Moscow of bad comments and petty actions. And I fully concur that Moscow had not always behaved in a “friendly manner” towards Constantinople, including the “takeover” that we saw on Mt. Athos of Panteleimon monastery about 120 years ago… (although, that was also Constantinople’s fault, per the account of Elder Daniel who at the time was imprisoned by the Patriarch when he complained about the bribes the Patriarch was ACCEPTING from Moscow in exchange for Panteleimon monastery to augment its ranks with Russian monks (as well as other “donations” on Mt. Athos)…for those who dispute Russian government influence on Mt. Athos, please take a look at the 1909 postage stamps of “Offices of the Russian empire on Mt. Athos” for a bit more contemplation …And the icing on the cake…several of these “monks” were suspected to be “spies in disguise” to monitor Ottoman movements in the North Aegean)….Nevertheless, can we look at some ACTUAL root causes as well before flippantly presenting “symptoms” as “root causes”? A lot of what you described are “reactions” to prior provocations, and not “actions”…
There is a high probability that St. Sophia would not have been turned into a mosque again if Constantinople had Moscow’s support and vice versa…instead, a unilateral “tomos” against the advice of the “Pan-Orthodox” voice at the time (2017-2018) has resulted in Schism, a moment of weakness in Orthodoxy that Erdogan took full advantage of (and the West didn’t even support Constantinople on this, by the way), as well as (of course) all the bad comments (and even prelest) that ensue…
Markos, you are 100% right on all counts.
Personally, I’m glad you brought up the issue of Hagia Sophia being turned back into a mosque. And I agree with you: had Bartholomew not acted in such a petulant manner re Moscow, it’s quite possible that Erdogan wouldn’t have taken this action.
What does this tell us about the EP? It tells me that he is not concerned with spiritual matters and as such does not act as a Christian shepherd. He is always reactive to Moscow, even when he doesn’t have to be. He certainly doesn’t accept the possibility that his petulance could result in unfortunate consequences.
Markos, the saying “no good deed goes unpunished” applies. The war in Ukraine has gone on for 12 years now, and it would have been unconscionable had the EP not granted autocephaly to Ukraine 8 years ago. Ukrainian autocephaly was the right thing to do, but of course the EP is being punished for it.
The EP caused Schism in Orthodoxy by issuing the tomos to Epiphanios. That is NEVER the right thing to do, nor is it a “good deed”. He was warned not to do it with a Pan-Orthodox barrage of letters to him, but he ignored all of them, because he promoted Elpidophoros who claimed that Bartholomew is the “first without equals”… Arrogance is a bad thing according to the Orthodox Fathers, and your continued blind support of “arrogance” makes you complicit in that arrogance…
But that’s not a surprise…your continued track record of promoting Uniate propaganda speaks for itself…
While I agree with much of your analysis David, the fact that there is (or was) a “katechon” is Scriptural. Some Church Fathers identify it as the lawful authority –preferably an anointed Christian king/emperor–others as the Church itself.
If the first is true, Nicholas II was the katechon and his removal resulted in the bloodiest, most anti-Christian century. If the latter is true, then as long as Christian liturgies are celebrated throughout the world, then the demonic will restrained. Also, this would explain why the “principalities and powers” moved heaven and earth to lock down our churches during the Plandemic.
Self-serving interpretations of End Times prophecies for geopolitical posturing is very thin ice.
Russia (and its apologists) can make all the excuses they like. “He/She/They made me do it!” is as old as the garden. “Russia as Katechon” is a Psyop, a rather successful one at that. It has convinced lots of well meaning Orthodox to turn against their country and their own people. On any given Sunday, there are far more Americans in Church than in ANY part of Russia OR Europe. We still lead the world in Theism per capita (although that number has diminished over the years). Russia is still a world leader in abortions (although that number has reduced significantly, Glory to God), alcoholism, and many of the other social ills so derided by the usual suspects. “Holy Russia” is an illusion. A Potempkin village. Before 2015, you would read in the Russian Orthodox press about how Russia still had “a long way to go” and priests lamenting the stubborn “Soviet mentality” that dominated. That sober introspection vanished because it didn’t fit the narrative (Russia didn’t suddenly become holy and awesome in a single decade, come on). The banner of the regicides and the body of Lenin still have places of honor. Stalin statues dot the land. The Moscow Patriarchate has become a chaplaincy for Russian geopolitical interests. Patriarch Kyrill’s crocodile tears for Metropolitan Onuphry and the UOC is galling and insulting (the UOC is also a “Banderist” organization for their insistence on supporting their country).
“But what about Patriarch Bartholomew!” Has worn thin.
The reality, is that lots of people have internalized the “America is/has become the Great Satan” Psyop. This is where Radical Islam and Russian Orthodoxy TRULY converge.
“Globalist” has become a code-word for American, just as “Zionist” has become a code word for Jew. Look at all the “anti-Globalist” ranting abroad. It always has America at the center of grievance.
“Multi-polarity” is a lie. Russia and China are America’s rivals, and they want to take us out. Their “aid” has geopolitical strings, just like ours does. The ghost of Bismarck and Kissinger speak from the grave.
Empires will do their thing. You all have cast your lot with America’s rivals, don’t kid yourselves (implying that the Rosenbergs were heroes was….stupifying). I can only conclude that it has something to do with the absurd notion that Orthodox Christians should support Orthodox countries, no matter what. Russia has certainly used that to their advantage. Muslims too (they’ve been doing it for centuries).
David – in order to put some order in the analytical “salad” of your comment let me ask you these simple things:
1) How many military bases Russia and China operate globally to oppose the 800 American bases (answer: less than 20 combined). Who threatens who? And who is acting as a threatening imperialist power?).
2)In 5-6 centuries of Colonialism – let’s say in Africa – how many works of public infrastructure did the “combined West” do? Answer: Next to nothing – only what served extraction / stealing of mineral wealth. In less than two decades China transformed Africa with networks of highways and railways… And ports and airports.
3) Would China or Russia ever pay a meager 5% to steal Niger’s uranium for decades as France did? Answer: NO.
4) Please name any colonialist, expansionist, and other global wars of China and Russia and then make a comparison with America and Europe’s “wars of choice”. Both Russia and China have suffered and have been attacked by the West countless times. Just the mention of the “opium wars” in China is enough to throw your argument into the “garbage can of history”….
Please respect the quality of argumentation Helleniscope has established. This is not the place to serve “fresh air”. Many other websites are for that.
Nick, speaking as a “man of the West” myself, I must agree with your assessment of Western depravity when it comes to the Third-world.
We have long been the pot which has called other kettles black.
George, the historical and political evidence is so overwhelming that I am amazed some among us fail to see the facts and evaluate them properly… It is obviously a result of brainwashing by education and media… But for us, Christians, failing to see these facts and express some form of remorse and repentance is an even bigger problem.
At the same time, we must recognize that Orthodoxy (and Hellenism historically since the times of Alexander the Great) consciously and deliberately avoided such depraved practices. A specific analysis of this has to be written and expanded. For now, let me repeat here what I have repeatedly discussed with many Greek diplomats – some of them good friends: There is no country on Earth, with the only exception being Turkey, where the doors are not wide open for them!! What a real privilege! The Afghans, the Indians, the Uzbekis still today say “Iskander” (this is how they call Alexander) and their faces are filled with adoration…
Conversely, there is great respect between China and Greece (and cooperation in maritime shipping since the early 1970s) and I suspect it has civilizational roots: Both civilizations expanded globally through trade and never through bloodthirsty Colonialism.
I will answer:
1.) The vast majority of those bases are “legacy bases” IE, those established during the Cold War. You seem to forget that Russia (as the Soviet Union) ALSO had many bases and intel assets abroad. We won the Cold War, Russia’s bases went away. Ours didn’t. You also seem to forget that many bases were closed in the 90s RIF, and that there were active plans to shrink our European footprint (and pivot to the Middle East and Asia). The EU leadership WANTED us to stay, because our military presence made their generous social programs possible (as their military spending could remain negligible). We didn’t force ourselves on them, they asked us to stay, because it benefited them. It’s the same everywhere we have influence. If we don’t establish a base (or sphere of influence), THEY WILL. To assert otherwise is the same level of naivety that got that British Academic murdered by Pol Pot when he tried to “offer suggestions.”
2.) Nobody is denying the ugliness of colonialism. Yes, the Europeans developed their colonies entirely for their own self-interest, but economic infrastructure can be (and is) quite substantive, compared to what was there before. That is far from “next to nothing.”
4.) You forget that Mao’s China and Stalin’s Russia DID in fact, steal resources in the name of “the Proletariat.” Directly, or indirectly through their Comintern influenced Marxist proxies around the world.
5.) Again, Communism. In your “analysis,” you conveniently gloss over Mao and Stalin, and the Communist regimes that we built our security apparatus to counter. Unless you are arguing that Communism was a good thing and that we should have allowed it to take over Europe? I suppose in a warped way you could argue that, as “the Church is stronger on persecution.”
I’m no Neo-Con. And Cracker Barrel Patriotism repels me. But I have no illusions about any of it. World Powers play world power games (and those games can get very very nasty). The only reason the European powers did what they did was because they won the technology race. Period. If Lepanto had gone the other way, or the Reconquista failed, we’d all be Dhimmi. If China had harnessed gunpowder before the “smelly barbarians” (their opinion of us at the time) and refined its use, we would be reading about the Chinese Empire that conquered Asia (and beyond). The Mexica (Aztecs) were the most brutal empire in our hemisphere (and in several respects dwarfed ANYTHING the Spanish did). The Spanish had no shortage of allies, as their cruelty was astronomical. We won the technology race. THAT’S IT.
I’m amazed. All of the stuff you’re writing is straight from the pages of Howard Zinn. To see you tell it, the politics of racial grievance has taken over “the Right” as well. This weird convergence of the Far Left and Far Right in our time is a sight to behold. Are the Israelis justified in Gaza because of the Holocaust? NOBODY gets a pass because of some bonkers ledger of historical grievances. NOBODY.
As for me, I’m not going to “root for the Russians” because they’re Orthodox. They tried to pull that crap in the Cold War with their code-named “priests.” I’m not going to root for the Chinese either to “stick it to the Globalists” The Chinese hate Christianity, and the Russians have co-opted it for their Russian Nationalist delusions.
There were prominent anti-imperialists (“Little Englanders”) in the British Empire. They weren’t rooting for the Kaiser or France. I couldn’t imagine Barry Goldwater or Pat Buchanan rooting for America’s rivals either.
This psyop has been a slow burn. “West as Anti-Christ” rhetoric smuggled into Russian Orthodox literature (and beyond), and conspiracy theory media focused in one direction. The Muslims are fighting the alphabet people too and “globalism,” but nobody is singing the praises of Sharia (some are). It’s all a sham. Unfortunately, too many Orthodox have fallen for it.
David – I asked you to answer four simple questions and I helped you with some of the answers also. Instead, you got angry in your totally unacceptable “cold war” mentality and you created a bigger “analytical salad”. If you were part of any debate forum you would be kicked out as a disrupter and a loser instantly.
Proposing “what ifs” and other hypotheticals is a sure sign of the intellectual impasse you are in. Example: Alexander the Great and the Greeks had the technology advantage for many centuries, yet they did not go around the Globe killing and stealing any poor “Indians” or “Africans”. They established colonies, they traded and they offered their culture and education. And they married local women.
The Chinese at several times in their equally long history had the naval power to conquer the whole known world. They again preferred trade and not killing and stealing.
The first written code of human rights was done by the Persians. The Russians for the greatest part of their history were defending themselves against foreign invaders. The barbaric western powers, Europeans and Americans, are the ones who incessantly create expansionist wars aiming at exploitation and hegemony.
For the last three decades the main game the US has – behind all the aggressive actions all over the globe – is to steal or otherwise control every country’s mineral wealth and especially oil and gas. Why? Because this is the only way to keep the “reserve currency” grift that allows them to print money at will and enrich themselves as they exploit everyone else on the planet.
Stuck in your cold war mentality as you are, you keep bringing up Mao and Stalin… this is not about communism anymore. It’s about the future.
And since you are happy the West won again and again the technology war, you must also be ready to recognize that now the West has lost it. How? When US warships have to stay 500 miles away from Iran to avoid being sunk by the Iranian missiles IT’S OVER. If the Iranian missiles and the Houthi missiles can force the American Navy to stay away, one can simply assume that China and even more so Russia can sink all American aircraft carriers in a matter of a few hours anywhere on the globe. US Generals at the Pentagon already know the truth.
Finally, why do you doubt that we are dealing with degenerates and perverts and Satanists ruling the West? Didn’t the EPSTEIN scandal tell you anything? Why do you ignore it?
Was the Epstein scandal Putin’s invention?
I will stop here reminding you that any serious debate must be based on good faith argunentation. Otherwise it becomes trolling and this is exactly where you are heading. Because you have lost the argument. You proved it when you tried to deny the OFFICIAL number of 800 US military installations globally. These are official numbers – denying them shows your bad faith and classifies you instantly as a troll.
My apologies. I am not a troll. I should have been more clear and concise in my response. Here it is:
1.) I am not denying the existence of our bases. My point is that they are legacy bases built IN RESPONSE to Russian aggression which was very real in the 20th Century. One can argue that they should have been dismantled after the Cold War. That is the other point I was making, that the US was pivoting away from Europe. The European elites didn’t want that, so we stayed. Maybe that was a mistake. I don’t deny that possibility.
2.) Establishing “colonies” is a violent enterprise (especially in the ancient world). Slavery was also practiced. To say it “wasn’t as bad as the Spanish or the British” is disingenuous. It’s a matter of degrees, not kind.
3.) Your comments about the Chinese betray your ignorance of the history of that part of the world. China was very much a colonial power in East Asia (and South Asia). Joseon (the name of Korea in the Middle Ages) fought multiple wars against Chinese incursions (they were forced into vassalage a few times—lots of “stealing resources”). They also fought Japan. The Vietnamese also have a “complicated” history with China. That’s a big reason why Vietnam is making overtures to the US (despite the war), because they hate China more than they hate us. That grudge is VERY VERY old.
4.) I’m not ignoring the Epstein Scandal. As a Greek, you no doubt remember the Ottoman Harems. Or Concubinage in any Royal house in the world (those girls were also “underage”). Degenerates and Perverts in the halls of power is not a new thing. Hopefully, there will be some justice for those involved.
I bring up Communism, because our entire security apparatus was built in that era. It is a carry-over. A legacy system. To imply it should be dismantled is naive in the extreme (hence my reference to the unfortunate British academic Pol Pot murdered). ALL of the ugly geo-political decisions we made were made to prevent the Russians from doing it first. Today’s situation cannot be understood without recognizing what led us here. You can argue we overreached. You can argue we went too far in some respects. Those are valid arguments. What can’t be denied, is that America’s actions were just as much a reaction as they were an initiative (as you say about Russia today).
I keep hearing that over and over again. “We should have come home!”
How? Those bases are the economic lifeblood of many communities abroad (and at home). They also provide security guarantees for countries which helped us during the Cold War, relationships that continued afterwards in a different context. The “Petro-Dollar” regime that so many rail against is a big part of our economy. Do you really think our leadership would destroy our economy to satisfy the ideological whims of some anti-American cranks? Most of those bases aren’t closed because the local people DON’T WANT IT. They depend on American dollars (for good or ill).
I’m not a “cold war” troll. I’m a veteran who knows how things actually work in the military world (including seeing how our military interacts and integrates with local communities abroad and at home). Any “draw-down” would have to be VERY SLOW (Very Very), as the moving pieces (economic, political, social, you name it) are countless. How realistic was it in 1992? Not very. Even less so now.
The reality many of you don’t seem to realize, is that we’re too deep in it. We can’t dismantle “our empire” without horrible consequences for the US, and for allies who would suddenly find themselves at the mercy of our rivals (nature abhors a vacuum—-the Russians or Chinese would move right in—-as I noted before, not everybody likes the Russians or Chinese). It’s easy to speak abstractly when it isn’t your hide on the line. Your community at risk. Your country left without a security framework. Who in the Senate is going to vote for economic collapse? Who among our countrymen/women would vote for such a thing?
The enemy adapts to your tactics and fields new weapons. It happens. We have guys right now working on ways to counter the counters. It’s an endless cycle.
The geopolitical situation is in flux. America’s place in the world is changing, and we’ll have to adapt. We may very well have to draw down. I personally would welcome it, but it has to be done the right way. America has to keep its promises (and on the flip side, NOT make promises we can’t keep).
David – I am glad you adjusted your tone.
1) The American bases were mostly a necessity for taking over the vast maritime British Empire. The Soviet/communist declarations about expanding socialism internationally were deflated by the 1960s, while the US “military-industrial complex” was fighting its Korea and Vietnam wars. After communism fell in 1990, most of them could be dismantled along with NATO. The European elites then and esp. now do exactly what the “puppet masters” in London, Paris and NY/DC dictate. Putin and esp. Xi Jinping know exactly who the puppet masters are: they are the descendants of those who started the “opium wars” in China about two centuries ago. If you are not familiar, look it up.
2) Ancient Greeks colonized the Black Sea and much of the Mediterranean (and beyond) without violence, establishing trade connections, cultivating the land, and sharing their culture. Huge civilizations like the Greeks and the Chinese will always have conflicts with neighbors. But they are the exceptions: I can name countless barbarian invaders of Greek lands for the past 2500 years. And if you know a tiny bit about China, you cannot ignore that much of their history is about repelling or resisting the same Mongolian barbarians who later came west to devastate everything with their lack of civilization. If you have spoken to any modern Chinese people, they can tell you horror stories about the even more barbaric Japanese occupation in the last century. Please set aside “complicated” relations with Vietnam and such. They show your overall limited knowledge. “They also fought Japan” Are you kidding? The most brutal occupation of modern history is that of China by Japan (1937-1945)… And you reduce it to “they also fought Japan”? P-lease…
You force me to wonder if I should go on answering…
3) The Epstein scandal involved the WHOLE degenerate Western elites – and especially those of Khazarian Jewish descent and their collaborators. This is where the exploitation of children comes from. Sorry, this is not the place to expand on this. But already the Epstein scandal proved much of it – although we just scratched the surface.
I should stop here because the second half of your comment sounds to me like pure, deranged Russophobia. The same Russophobia that makes you still today, over 35 years after the fall of communism, confuse Russia with the communist Soviet Union.
However, I am very happy to read that you also see the need to “draw down” the Empire. I disagree that “we” have any decisive powers. Others will be forced to make the tough decisions because they lost the now combined wars in Ukraine and Iran: the puppet masters. As these puppet masters lose power, “we the people” may have a chance to kick them out of the FED and our banking system and regain control of our land. And eventually establish peace and a new security system with the rest of the world. In the past, I have made a special post and many other references to the countless times Russia helped America since 1776. The two countries are natural allies and the peoples – esp. the Russians – very friendly to each other. After we kick the puppet masters out, we have a good chance to achieve peace and prosperity.
David,
Was it really primarily about the Soviet Union, or more about securing the hegemony of the US dollar and the control of a “fair share” of global resources that would keep that plan well-rooted and alive? Couldn’t the Vietnam War also be called “the war to cater to Getty’s influence over Washington’s elites?” Lots of veterans died because of a couple phone calls that Getty made when he was in danger of losing his investments…
And speaking of Vietnam and the “hegemony of the US dollar”, there used to be a “gold standard” backing our beloved dollar, until the expenditures on the Vietnam War caused something happen..remember what happened and why, as Saudi Arabia started cashing in dollars for gold?
Wasn’t it also true in Greece that soon after the military junta had started drilling for oil in the North Aegean for the first time (near Thasos, if you remember), and announced a vision of establishing an independent “petro-drachma” (to by-pass the need for a mandatory exchange into dollars), that not long after, the Cyprus fiasco with “loyal asset” Ioannides was staged by Kissinger as “punishment for daring to even suggest a deviation from the Dollar hegemony plan” (and the “inflation & debt-loving” regime of Karamanlis and Rallis [followed by Papandreou’s financial and corruption-enslavement program] started doing their thing)? Greece had pretty much “near-zero debt” in 1974, and it cost 30 drachmas to exchange one US dollar…but by the time the Euro was established, it was nearly 400 drachmas to the dollar (340 drachmas to one Euro, but at the time it was ~82 US cents for one Euro)…an 11 to 12x reduction in relative purchasing power…and debt was a few years away from an IMF/ECB intervention….The Kissinger doctrine at work., but the naive and corrupt Greek voting population is just as culpable in voting in the same corrupt gangs, time and time again.
And what happened in the last 26-27 years?
Putin’s main motivation to ascending to power was watching Boris Yeltsin “give away” Russia’s wealth in exchange for vodka and women…when Putin “stopped the pillaging” in Russia (“removing” some pro-Western oligarchs along the way), he was labeled “the bad guy”, and the focus of the pilfering shifted to the Ukraine, where after 14 years of frustrating “tug-of-war”, NATO (defense of dollar hegemony) interests supported a “coup” to try and “grab” the assets needed for “sustainable economic growth”…
And wasn’t BRICS a real and direct threat to “bypassing the mandatory use of US Dollars” for purchasing barrels of oil? The more dollar reserves the world needs to store and consume on a daily basis, the more dollars can “safely be printed”…and keeping the price of oil high also helps “float” the US dollar a bit longer, doesn’t it? The real reason for 45 years of embargos on Iranian oil centers around a combination of “supply-demand” controls, coupled with an Iranian resistance to participating in the mandatory US dollar exchange-for-oil market…Venezuela was similar.
We all enjoy a prosperous life in the US, but we also acknowledge that there is an fragile “dollar hegemony engine” supporting it, which can theoretically turn the US dollar into the Zimbabwe dollar (who remembers the Great Depression) very quickly if and when it breaks down…decoupling from the Gold Standard mereliy “kicked the can down the road….And how the politicians and the media spin each “big threat” to hegemony (communism, evil Putin, Iran, China, etc) is only a diversionary deflection from the underlying economic incentive to perpetuate dollar hegemony…the only solution is for Congress to do what they hate to do…figure out how to cut spending, especially military spending, balance the budget, and “take the political hit” up front for spending that the current and next generations can’t afford…but, the “Getty’s” of this world were supported by the Supreme Court decision to allow campaign financing (purchasing of politicians) to continue into the foreseeable future. We are literally at the point where voting matters less than donating to a campaign….sad.
1.) Korea fought Japan AND China (I was referring to Korea). The Vietnamese also had to deal with China. That the Europeans came in later and took over China does not change the fact that China, like the Aztecs, were an imperial power in their own right that got squashed by a bigger imperial power. Do you know any Korean or Vietnamese people personally? I do. Have you ever been to Korea or anywhere else in Asia? I have. I’m not talking from a history book. Korea was occupied longer than China was. Those scars still linger too (“Comfort Women” and all of that). I’ve actually seen the Mountain ranges of North Korea. I’ve actually met Korean and Vietnam War veterans (Koreans—-South Korea was the 2nd largest contingent of soldiers in Vietnam along side of us) They are just as wary and hostile towards China (and Japan for that matter) as we are—-more so, as they have CENTURIES of experience with them. The Soviet Threat didn’t really start to taper until the 1970s (Little known fact, the Korean War almost kicked off again in the 60s—-troops were diverted from Vietnam to Korea and everybody held their breath—-a decade of tensions).
Do you even know how a BRAC (Base Realignment and Closure) works? It took 20 years to close the US 8th Army HQ in Seoul and move it to Camp Humphreys. That you ignore the logistic, economic and geopolitical implications indicates that you either don’t know the nuts and bolts of it, or you don’t care.
2.) The Epstein Scandal is terrible, but “Trust me, bro” and Oliver Stone style chalk board conspiracy talk isn’t fact. Not buying the Jewish space lasers, and I’m a big fan of Sci-Fi.
Yeah, the USSR is gone, but Russia is going heavy on the Soviet nostalgia. It’s hard to forget about Stalin when Russia is building NEW monuments to the man. The former Warsaw Pact have their own historical grievances with Russia. They didn’t need US AID to be hostile, they had that covered all on their own. Not just Ukraine either—-Poland, Lithuania, Finland, Romania….A huge nasty ball of old grudges going back to before the time of Ivan the Terrible.
I personally have no problem with Russians. I think the West had a brief window of opportunity to improve relations with Russia but it was missed/lost. The Russians certainly aren’t blameless, as they seem utterly incapable of understanding why so many countries in Eastern Europe would run into the arms of the West in the first place. Lost opportunities on BOTH SIDES to turn the page.
Multi-polarity is an illusion. Like Metternich’s “New Europe” or Bush Sr’s “New World Order.” Russia and China have global ambitions just as we do. To assert otherwise is pure kool-aid. Your “Clash of Civilizations” talk and defense of Russia means you’ve sided with them against your own country.
It is your own country, right? Another deep fault line in MAGA: “Heritage Americans” (of which I am one, going back generations, not that I care all that much….but some kooks online do care about it very much) VS the hyphenated Americans (including “Hellas”). Questions are being asked in those dark corners about where one’s loyalties lie. A very sad and tragic symptom of our times. “Alternative Media” is a fiction. It’s either a grift or Psyop from America’s enemies. It’s all propaganda. Don’t be fooled.
I have to tell you, it’s hard to remain Orthodox in this kind of atmosphere. I’m part of the Greek Church, but I grow weary of this nonsense. This “America is the Great Satan” junk doesn’t help either. It’s like the anti-Zionists who insist they aren’t anti-semetic. Sometimes, they cross the line. “Anti-Globalists” do the same, straying into “Death to America!” rhetoric.
This will be my last reply. I don’t want to get into it with you. I’m trying my damndest to stay Orthodox.
Lord, have mercy.
David, it was you who went off the deep end. Millions of Americans have realized quite recently that our country is taken over by Israel (after it was taken over decades ago by other organized interests). When we vote for Trump on specific issues, and he proves to be a traitor, we have no other avenue but to expose those interests and rise up. Tucker Carlson is not chanting “Death to America”!! Those who accuse him of such are practicing fascism of the worst kind… And they are bound to eventually be thrown in “the trash can of history”.
I will end the discussion here with an older post: How many times in history has Russia helped America?
https://www.helleniscope.com/2023/08/26/how-many-times-in-history-russia-helped-america/
I did want to add this last note, if I may:
My intention was not to derail the conversation. What I was talking about is very much related to what Patriarch Kyrill said.
There are Orthodox Christians in the Ukrainian Army, and in the US Army. The implications of this anti-Western rhetoric is simple: Those who serve in either army are somehow in service to Satan. Perhaps the people who say this stuff don’t think about that. I’ve called people out a few times online, and I always get “Oh, I wasn’t talking about you!” Or they label me “a White Hat,” to somehow square that circle.
I am not a “Russophobe.” We should have made peace with Russia. But we didn’t. They are now our enemy (again). What to do with that fact?
Opposing conflict is valid. Advocating for deescalation is valid.
What isn’t valid? Relishing America’s defeat. Speaking/Writing with a “take that, Yankee” attitude. Whether you think Israeli agents or Lizard people have taken over our government, that is still wrong. That’s Jane Fonda level BS (She still can’t come within a 100 feet of a VFW to this day).
We have guys downrange (slang for troops/navy deployed). They are in harm’s way. Some have already died. We are committed, whether you or I like it or not.
Remember John Dickinson. One of the Founding Fathers, who opposed Independence and War with Britain. BUT, when the die was cast, he put on the uniform and did his duty.
Patriarch Kyrill’s rhetoric threatens to make being Orthodox and a patriotic American citizen mutually exclusive. I reject this, with every fiber of my being.
Don’t throw your countrymen/women under the bus because you hate our government.
David – there is no logic in your argument AT ALL. The fact that our spouses, our children or our Orthodox brothers are in harm’s way by serving in the US or allied military cannot justify our support for the corrupt elites who decide “wars of choice” in order to promote THEIR OWN interests and not the interests of our nation. I have heard many veterans preaching the same upside down logic. Why should we subject ourselves to these degenerate and corrupt elites and why should we allow them to decide for America? The fact that our brothers are fighting in the military under the leadership of real traitors is pure tragedy but it should be one more reason for the rest of us to rise up. History teaches us that, for example, the Roman army or the Byzantine army revolted many times and overthrew corrupt emperors. Why not expect from our brothers in the military to do the same? Didn’t you hear what happened in USS Lincoln? The sailors were a little step away from uprising! And in many other units they know and they talk amongst themselves: “We dont want to die for Israel!!”… Let’s give them the moral support they deserve to overthrow the corrupt leadership!.. At a moment where much of America is “up in arms” against the DC “Swamp” you will sit here and justify the evil leadership? We foolishly believed that by voting for Trump we would overthrow this Evil, and we are the overwhelming majority!! We are “America” not the self-serving SOBs who sit around offices in DC and obey orders from Jerusalem and from the Oligarchs of the financial power centers!! It’s time for you to wake up!!
You gave me a sincere response that deserves an answer. This is actually a conversation worth having outside of a comment box.
There will never be a military revolt in the United States, because the conception that our military should be subordinated to the civilian government is foundational (and is a key plank of US military doctrine). I heard what happened on the USS Lincoln (logistical nightmare). Mental health is always an issue on long deployments (There is often at least 1 person who attempts suicide or has suicidal ideation). Mutiny is overstating things. Morale in the toilet, absolutely. Deployments are rough. At sea, more so. I also remember when we had to fight the Iraqi Insurgents with unarmored vehicles early in that war (took time to remedy that, guys were welding plates on themselves). This happens in EVERY war (read about our “adventures” when we first got to North Africa in WWII—-quite ugly). That we “shouldn’t be at war!” is besides the point. We are.
The “Swamp” has always existed. “They” don’t want to drain the swamp, they are rival swamp creatures. Trump wasn’t the guy, so now a despairing MAGA is flailing around, looking for the next “guy.” There is no next guy. Those of us who remained faithful to actual conservatism (See Kirk’s “The Conservative Mind” for quick reference) knew that from the very beginning. But we were labeled “Never Trumpers” and bullied into silence. Those who spoke up were outcast and abused.
The ghost of William F. Buckley flicks his pen from beyond.
Many of us still believe in the Republic (while not necessarily liking the outcomes of elections). That’s why so many of us veterans have “upside down logic.” We took an oath to support and defend the Constitution of the United States (invoking the Almighty to do so). For many of us, that oath is for life, and transcends political loyalties (that oath is the reason many Southerners—including Robert E. Lee’s own nephew fought for the Union in the Civil War). Veterans are not a monolith. You have Pete Hegseth on one end, and Oliver Stone on the other. But the oath is what binds us all together, even if we disagree on what “support and defend” actually means in practice.
Perhaps you don’t understand. The cultural and political divide between the civilian and military world is huge. I recall one bitter veteran getting mad when he heard some talking head on Fox News talking about “We’re at War.” He replied: NO. WE are at war. YOU are at Starbucks.
The Constitution says what it says. I’m not prepared to “destroy the village to save it.” We’ve learned how horrible that is on the battlefield. More so in our political life.
I am quite awake. We just disagree. Profoundly.
Thank you for posting my comments. As the editor, you have the last word of course.
What Constitution are you defending when Netanyahu is allowed to sit in the situation room and dictate the course of action to Trump and the supposed American leadership? This is a fact widely reported and happened very recently. Did you take an oath to the Zionist cause? If anyone wants to protect the Constitution they should rise up!! Anyway, so many times recently I read and hear that a revolution is coming to America, of Americans taking up our arms and restoring the Republic that it is obvious where exactly we are at. Our military men are beyond mutiny when they write on their bombs “we don’t want to die for Israel!!” and such… Similarly, it’s beyond “repairing” the equipment when everyone knows – both the sailors and the Pentagon generals – that the Iranians, the Russians and the Chinese can sink these warships at will with their superior missiles. The situation at DC is beyond repair. The military-industrial complex and the traitors who run it have failed in the one thing they were supposed to win and they only have one way now – on their way to prison or hell: to protract their time in power with more useless wars…We are living in historic times.
David,
Speaking of WWII and your assertion that there would “never be a military revolt in the US”…
Did General Patton “follow orders” when he decided to march to Berlin, despite being ordered not to? Sounds like insubordination according to the military handbooks, but they didn’t touch him because a) he succeeded and became popular with the media, and b) he had an “accident” before they could even dare to court martial him. Nevertheless, he operated in a very rogue manner, and had a large, powerful army to lead into “mass insubordinate behavior”.
This country is currently divided in a way similar to 1861…a lot of governors willing to deploy the national guard to assist with crime reduction and removing illegal immigrants, and a lot who are not…
Under the right conditions, a “mutiny” of sorts is entirely likely if the following conditions align:
1) Congress fails to impeach an unpopular President (who in turn openly violates the Constitution), OR
1b) Congress and the President collude to pass very unpopular bills into law (against the will of the people),
2) The MIC (and perhaps other “campaign donors”) also starts getting upset with Congress and the President because they are not producing a “return on investment”,
3) 75% of governors are willing to order their national guard to “march on Washington”, AND
4) A leader similar to Patton’s mindset heads the Pentagon, and rallies enough “top brass” to “convince” the President and several Congressmen to resign…
Sounds like a new Hollywood script, of course, but if enough “treasonous whackos” get voted into office, who knows what may happen in the future…If the Patton phenomenon of “disobedience” and insubordination can exist once in history, you should “never say never” about the future, either…it’s always possible.