Karloutsos Allows Desecration Of the Hamptons Church Of Panaghia with A Bocelli Performance (EN-GR)

Yes, but clap their hands for whom, exactly? Not for Bocelli.
In our hymnography, (standard Katabasies for the Theotokos that we hear a large part of the year during Orthros), we encounter the phrase:
“δεῦτε τὰς χεῖρας κροτήσωμεν, τὸν ἐξ αὐτῆς τεχθέντα Θεὸν δοξάζοντες.”
(Come let us clap our hands…glorifying God, the one who was born of her[the Theotokos])

That’s certainly what St. John Chrysostom was referring to…clapping of hands to glorify God, not Bocelli

In Jerusalem, during the service of the lighting of the Holy Light on Holy Saturday afternoon, there are plenty of youtube videos showing that a large number of the zealous Christians of the Middle East still “clap their hands” when they first enter the Church of the Holy Sepulcher, literally “in drumbeat and dance” (psalm 150:4), in anticipation of the joyous event. And even though it may seem “disruptive, disrespectful, and rude” on the surface (it’s definitely not “in order”, according to what is written in our Church Books today), their expression of joy is for the Holy Light – for the Resurrection -for God – and not for “Bocelli”. That’s why the seemingly loud, disruptive behavior is “tolerated”.

Clapping of hands is also observed and tolerated within several Orthodox communities in Africa too, during a variety of services, but also in these instances, they are not “clapping for Bocelli”. It is still within the expectation that this type of cultural expressiveness is a “form of praise” towards God.

That doesn’t mean that tomorrow we should go into Church and start clapping hands…the “cultural association” of exhibition of praise to God via “clapping” has been lost in Western society for centuries, so it would be unnatural and hypocritical to advocate for or “pretend with” something like that today. And imitating any well-known modern Protestant / Pentecostal hypocritical behaviors without purpose is not the way to go, either. We who were raised in Western society should continue focusing on “the quiet path” to spiritual advancement, limiting our “noise footprint” to participation in hymns, responses, and prayers that are prescribed for us during the service…and it goes without saying, that yelling hymns and prayers over the rest of the congregation’s “sound level” out of some “exhibition of piety” is not acceptable behavior either…we shouldn’t forcefully try and stand out, but rather “blend” with our participation.

But in some other geographical regions around the world, where culturally “clapping” during certain special liturgical occasions as a natural, honest, cultural form of praise to God has survived for many centuries (like Jerusalem / Africa), the Church’s tolerance of “clapping” will likely continue for a long time, and rightly shouldn’t be hindered by the bishops.

One can potentially argue that in some corners of Greek culture, the relatively modern (disruptive) phenomenon of repeated banging of the “stasidia” of the Church during the Vesperal liturgy on Holy Saturday at the point where the priest exits the altar with the antiphonal chanting of “Αναστα ο Θεος” is a Greek Orthodox attempt at “revival” of “clapping”, as well, although in this case, it started as a “fun event” for children in certain parts of Greece likely only 150 or so years ago, it spread, especially to communities in North America, but this modern practice has also turned so excessive and distracting from the Service, drowning the hymns and words that should be heard by the faithful, that it rightly should be curtailed and disallowed by the bishops.

❤️

During Christ’s time, there were 12 disciples, one of whom was a thief…
Today, even if the percentage of “thieves” within the hierarchy has risen dramatically, we the faithful still have the spiritual obligation and free will to shop around to find the one who is NOT a thief. There are still a few solid bishops around, although you may have to get on an airplane for several hours to find one…
Stick to the Truth, and to those who proclaim and apply it in their lives…

Bob, Karloutsos had many other options – among them to use the community center or to pick any other venue in the Hamptons. Literally next to his Church is SUNY Southampton college, that is now part of Stony Brook and Karloutsos IS a member of the Board at Stony Brook. He could have booked the Southampton College theater (look it up – there are beautiful photos online) in 30 seconds. But no, he thought it was wonderful to desecrate the Orthodox Church. He is very much in line with Protestantism. I remind you here that similar events regularly happen at St. John the Divine in NYC, an Episcopalian Cathedral. There, they even allow Halloween celebrations in the Church!! Is this the road we want to take? OF COURSE NOT!!

Hey Bobbi..for a guy who bashed Helleniscope for deleting and manipulating comments that had a “Negative Influence ” on Helleniscope narratives that all his discovered Scandals of Zionist Joe Biden and the ruling Democratic party , The leaders of the Catholic and Greek Orthodox Churches, CNN , Fbi and Justice department were indictable offenses and crimes against humanity and grounds for prosecution and removal from offices of power!
The only service Helleniscope has provided for his Neo Con Greek American Sons of liberty readers is to continue to fool them, that the Dominant White Supremacist Evangelical Protestant leaders of America’s government , Congress , Media , Churches, and the Dick Cheney, Donald Trump, George Bush, and Lindsey Graham Evangelical Protestant Republican Party have not been willing participants in their crimes against humanity and God! All Helleniscope does is accurately reveal all the scandals and evil of the now acknowledged Uni Parties, but merely as a political tool to funnel votes to his Poliotical Party of choice and benefit ..the Republican Party ! The Helniscope maligned Pope ..just had a negative influence on both ruling parties , and highlighted what Helleniscope really supports… Pope: Unfortunately , the American Elections only allow Americans the choice of electing “One of the lesser Evil” of America!
And thanks to Helleniscope and the other Greek Media outlets …those evil Evagnelical dominant parties ..the Republican and Democratic .Party have just without the permission of the American People openly “Declared War on Russia ,Europe and America , and possibly the world by ordering the Zelensky Government to use U.S and British long Range missiles to bomb Russia , despite the fact that they know that Putin would retaliate against America, and officially begin WW3!
Congratulations on in order for the Good work ..Helleniscope has done , and you can add this scandal of inciting WW3 to their resume! I am sure Helleniscope you will not share this post , which will have a Negative influence on you!

Bob,

Following the logic of your “respectful disagreement”, why did they even stop there? Why don’t they also go to the next step, and serve refreshments, heat up some water or coffee with the same utensils they use to heat up the “zeon” during Liturgy, and perhaps even use other holy vessels for “non-Liturgical purposes”, too, like they once did at a concert 20 years ago in North America, which was held in a Protestant Church, and where somehow (unknown which GOARCH priest allowed it) they managed to borrow an actual working Orthodox “katzio” (type of censer) from a Greek Church altar’s skevofylakio and gave it to a muslim guy who they dressed in a “raso” (also borrowed from a Greek Church), an Orthodox monastic cap, and a “mandyas” to increase the “theatrical effects” of their show? That video was circulating many years ago…it was quite disturbing.

Outrageous, impious, and desecratory, one might say? Why then would it be considered more sacrilegious to use dedicated Liturgical vessels for “private use” than to utilize an entire dedicated holy Church building for a similar non-Liturgical, theatrical, “secular purpose”?

That kind of thinking is illogical at best, and entirely foreign to our Tradition…Anything that is 100% dedicated to Liturgical worship of God (item or building) means it should not be used for “private / secular use”, plain and simple. There are some very old and still valid Canons about that, too. It’s really not negotiable, even under the argument that “it was for a good cause”. Bottom line for anyone wanting to imitate the happenings at the Hamptons in the future…Go next door to the hall and do whatever Bocelli fundraising concert you want. Keep that stuff out of God’s dedicated House of Worship.

We are talking past each other…the fixation is not upon forcing “all faithful” to learn Greek, but at least within the “Greek” Orthodox archdiocese, to expect and strongly encourage those with Greek background combined with intellectual aptitude (like yourself) to learn the original texts, because North America is literally a “sea of Protestantism” due to largely incorrect interpretation / translation of Scripture. Someone has to “hold the line” at the end of the day…

I want to supply you with an example to illustrate the point about “Protestant influence” in English translations:
Let’s compare Luke 11:28 to Romans 10:18, and let’s compare KJV

But I say, Have they not heard? YES VERILY, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world. (Rom 10:18) (Verily is also translated as “Indeed” in many other translations)

But he said, YEA RATHER, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it. (Luk 11:28) (Rather is also translated as “on the contrary” in other translations)

So, JK…answer this…how is it possible for the same Greek word – μενουνγε – to be translated into 2 VERY DIFFERENT meanings in English (VERILY/INDEED vs. RATHER/ ON THE CONTRARY)? And by the way, which one is actually “correct”? :)

Is there perhaps a possibility that Protestant “interpretation”, or perhaps “rejection” of the Orthodox teaching about the Theotokos played a key role in [intentionally] distorting the translation here? Is it possible that KJV (original English translation) as well as subsequent Protestant versions couldn’t accept the use of the word “Indeed” in the instance of Luke 10:28, because it would be in line with Orthodox theology about the Theotokos’ example of doing perfect obedience to God’s will by responding to Gabriel with the words “ίδου η δούλη Κυρίου, γένοιτό μοι κατά το ρήμα σου” (Luke 1:38)? Then they’d have to accept other things that they reject today, wouldn’t they? Oops… :)

At least that’s one major theory as to “what may have transpired” here with the “variant English translation of the same Greek word”, but the scriptures are currently speckled with a bunch of these controversial “Protestant translations”.

So JK…How exactly do you reconcile or justify this situation, without going back to examine the original Greek? How can you reject the importance of the original Greek in these cases? Is the above really a “misplaced attachment to the Greek language”, or perhaps, is your attachment to (and unwavering faith in) faulty English translations misplaced instead?

and by the way, the “Aramaic” comment is something you keep bringing up, but Scripture consistently tells us clearly that only 3 languages were represented on the Cross above Jesus’ head…Greek / Latin / Hebrew…why wouldn’t they also put Aramaic on the cross if that was supposedly what Jesus spoke? You can claim that it was just a “spoken language”, but then your sources cite “aramaic texts” from the first couple of centuries, so clearly there was a “written language”, too…I think you are being influenced by sources that belong to a perennial propaganda engine desiring to delegitimize the original Evangelist’s authentic Greek writings, and unfortunately there have been many of those efforts out there for a long time.

You love going around in circles, and avoiding questions presumably in an attempt to divert/distract/delay?

By the way, why don’t you answer my direct questions about the inconsistent translation of μενουνγε Romans vs. Luke above, and about your continued steadfast faith in such faulty English translations?

We already answered all that you ask in previous questions in this forum… but maybe there is a short-term memory challenge at play here, so let’s play this annoying game of merry-go-round for your sake…

1) Sure, and why not?… the fact that the Gospel writers intentionally recorded the people’s confusion about the understanding of Jesus’ phrase Ελι Ελι, λαμα σαβαχθανι (and intentionally wrote it as a single, unique instance in “non-Greek”) , while the same bystanders were clearly not confused about the “other things Jesus preached” in the 3 years prior is a strong argument supporting this very view…The ball is in now fully in your court to explain why Aramaic was not included in the 3 “main” languages on the Cross, if it was “the predominant one” at the time and locale…

2) No translation is fully accurate, but some languages are “weaker” than others, when compared to Greek, and English happens to be one of the “weakest”…as a result, Slavonic translations (and Latin ones) are far more accurate than the English ones (remember this response from a while ago now)?

3) Nobody who was known to have ended their life believing/preaching heretical thought, confusion, and deception has been elevated a “saint” of the Church. Sainthood is largely about succeeding at “denial of one’s self”…you are conflating the concept of corrupted texts with the path(s) to sainthood, and that is not a valid logical construct. Many martyrs didn’t even read a word of Scripture, because they were illiterate. And until the printing presses were invented, only the “extremely wealthy” could afford a manuscript of Scripture in their homes…However, the first Apostles were documented as “preaching in languages/tongues”, as they went to “the reaches of the earth”…so yes, all these “people” heard the Gospel “in their own language”, which initially the Holy Spirit (through those original Apostles) via the “speaking in tongues” we can be assured was “the most accurate verbal translation and instruction” that could be provided, because the Holy Spirit wouldn’t provide anything less. That’s how saints were first produced in those “languages” and “cultures”…then they taught others, and others, etc….(similar case with Cyril & Methodios, in later years) What got recorded later on paper, and how things got “mis-translated” or “paraphrased” by error-prone humans is not a surprising outcome…just look at the mess that transpired with the Filioque starting in Toledo Spain, from supposedly “Latins” that had both a “good translation” and “good knowledge of Greek” to begin with…it doesn’t take much to stray…