OUR MAIN IMAGE: An artistic rendition of the big rejection of Pat. Barthoplomew’s advances by Patriarch Gabriel of Bulgaria…
EDITOR’S NOTE (Nick Stamatakis). Patriarch Bartholomew believed he could once again rely on the familiar Phanariot playbook—courting the leaders of the Bulgarian, Romanian, Georgian, and other Orthodox Churches to reverse their opposition to Ukrainian autocephaly. He invited them to Istanbul, paid repeated visits, sought to influence ecclesiastical elections, and employed every political maneuver the Phanar has long been accused of by its critics. None of it worked.
Patriarch Daniel of Bulgaria delivered a firm and unequivocal “No” (see below). Patriarch Daniel said that the Bulgarian Orthodox Church does not recognize the OCU and, together with the majority of the Local Orthodox Churches, eleven other churches, continues to support the canonical Ukrainian Orthodox Church.
Georgia elected a Patriarch widely regarded as pro-Russian.
Romania has no intention of aligning itself with the Phanar on this issue.
Why? Anyone who has spent time in Romania is familiar with the enduring historical resentment many Romanians express toward the Phanariot era, during which Phanariot rulers governed the Romanian principalities as tax collectors under the authority of the Ottoman Sultan for more than a century. For many, that period remains associated with heavy taxation, political intrigue, and foreign domination.
History has a way of revisiting the actions of past elites. Whether sooner or later, the consequences of political and ecclesiastical abuses often outlive those who made them.
The Archons hallucinate “victory,” and Elpidoophoros, even more out of touch, hopes that the solution to the Schism in the World Orthodoxy would come with a peace agreement that will end the war in Ukraine. They are so incompetent that they totally ignore repeated statements by Sergey Lavrov and the whole Russian leadership that the first item in any peace treaty (now completely unlikely – as we wait for the Russian Army to advance to Kiev and Odesa) will be the protection of the UOC and also the Russian language!…
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source – spzh.eu
BOC Patriarch: Like 11 other Churches, we do not recognize OCU and support UOC
Patriarch Daniel said that the Bulgarian Orthodox Church does not recognize the OCU and, together with the majority of the Local Orthodox Churches, continues to support the canonical Ukrainian Orthodox Church.
Bulgarian Patriarch Daniel has stated that the Bulgarian Orthodox Church does not recognize the Orthodox Church of Ukraine (OCU) and, like the overwhelming majority of the Local Orthodox Churches, continues to recognize and support the canonical Ukrainian Orthodox Church headed by His Beatitude Metropolitan Onuphry. He made the remarks in an interview for the Question of Measure program.
“Our position is the same balanced position held by the other eleven Local Orthodox Churches that have not recognized this church structure in Ukraine (the OCU – Ed.) and continue to support and recognize as the canonical Orthodox Church in Ukraine the Ukrainian Orthodox Church under Metropolitan Onuphry. Therefore, the Bulgarian Orthodox Church stands with the majority of the Orthodox Churches,” Patriarch Daniel said.
He stressed that this position should not be interpreted as support for the Russian Orthodox Church, noting that the Bulgarian Church has not broken Eucharistic communion with Constantinople and continues to concelebrate with its representatives.
“For example, to whom is the Albanian Church supposedly aligned? Yet it expressed a very serious position on this issue. Both under the previous primate, Archbishop Anastasios, and under the current primate, Archbishop Ioannis, very firm and purely canonical positions have been articulated. Therefore, I call on people who consider themselves great experts and who seem to spend more time on social media to show respect for the institution of the Bulgarian Orthodox Church,” Patriarch Daniel emphasized.
Earlier, the UOJ reported that Patriarch Daniel had supported Bulgaria’s decision not to back sanctions against Patriarch Kirill, the Primate of the Russian Orthodox Church.
The Bulgarian Church still maintains communion with Constantinople, just like every other balanced Orthodox Church does, with the only exception being Russia. The message here is that non-recognition of the OCU doesn’t necessitate breaking communion with Constantinople also.
The Bulgarian Holy Synod has even decided to invite Patriarch Bartholomew to Bulgaria for the upcoming feast of St. John of Rila, from October 16 to 20 this year:
https://orthodoxtimes.com/ecumenical-patriarch-to-visit-bulgaria-in-october/
Eleven Orthodox Churches DO NOT recognize Ukrainian Autocephaly – period… Joseph, if this is not a catastrophic failure of the Phanar, Bartholomew, Karloutsos and the the Archons then you are NOT a good faith commentator but a low-life “troll”.
Yes, the Bulgarian and other Churches are still in communion with the Phanar. But this may mean that they are giving a chance to re-unification after – corrupt and sinful to the core – Bartholomew resigns or dies. In that way these Churches will not have to accept the “Third Rome”.
The bottomline is this: Bartholomew has lost the “aura” and the “credibility” a Patriarch of Constantinople needs and only his resignation or death will give a hope of restoring these. Unfortunately even if he removes himself, the traditional Orthodox / conservative policies of the Moscow Patriarchate and the Russian political leadership on family and marriage and theri rejection of “Western gender ideology” make Russia a natural leader of Orthodoxy. I feel your “hurt” but you can drink vinegar as we say in Greek…
Almost every thing that the EP has touched has turned to dross. Outside of granting autocephaly to Albania and spearheading the creation of the regional episcopal assemblies, I am at genuine loss to point to any positive accomplishments.
And even if there were, what he did in the Ukraine, would erase everything when the final tally is taken.
Even worse, he knew what he was doing was wrong and for the cherry on top of this sh!t sundae, he allowed his office to be used by the State Dept and their globohomo agenda.
I say AXIOS! to Patriarch Daniel.
The churches that do not recognize the OCU are spineless and lily-livered, afraid to rock the boat even to save someone from drowning. Kow-towing to Moscow, they fear that the Russian Church would break communion with them and then claim jurisdiction in their territory as has happened to the Patriarchate of Alexandria.
Perhaps they do not realize that the current schism in Ukraine is primarily “justified” because of those eleven churches that do not recognize the OCU. Even in Ukraine they repeat the same circular argument over and over, that they don’t recognize the OCU because most of the Orthodox churches don’t.
At some point, those eleven churches will have to man-up and claim responsibility for their involvement in “justifying” this schism.
Joseph – I love it when you get angry !! Truly enjoyable!! As I said, the proverbial Greek solution is to sip a little vinegar and your anger will go away… those spineless churches!! Which happen to be the overwhelming majority of Orthodox Church!! And include colossal Orthodox figures such as Anastasios of blessed memory who wrote two historical letters to corrupt Bartholomew explaining why autocephaly was wrong…
The OCU is not a Church. The behavior of these “bishops” and “priests” demonstrate they are not Christians. Participating in and endorsing violence against the real Church. This in addition to the fact the OCU is a creation of the Nazi government of Ukraine, the US, and the Phanar.
The appalling sacrilege at the Kiev caves Lavra is proof of the demonic motivations of the Ukrainian government and the OCU. Using the holy Lavra for pagan purposes as the Union of Orthodox Journalists has documented proves the eleven Churches refusing to recognize the OCU are in the right.
The real Ukrainian Church is that of the suffering bishops, priests, monastics, and laypeople who are being arrested, beaten, and harassed. They are confessors.
Patriarch Bartholomew is hungry for power and motivated by jealousy of the Russian Church. Patriarch Theodore of Alexandria and Archbishop Ieronymos of Athens are cowards for capitulating to foreign pressure.
Joseph,
When 11 people in the room agree that you are the one who is wrong, it may be a hint of total narcissism and arrogance when you insist on the opposite. That term can easily describe Constantinople’s leadership these days…
The “11” have totally “manned up”, but in defense of the “Unity of the Orthodox Faith”, not the “Schismatic Uniate train” that Constantinople is enabling these days…. You can’t blame them for not “hopping on board”
If you need some mouthguards to protect you against the (Biblical phrase) “gnashing of teeth” that you are exhibiting on this topic, we can ask a dental expert to recommend a good brand for you…
In the meantime, good for Patriarch Daniel!
I would add that it was the Churches of Alexandria, Cyprus and Greece who were truly spineless. Joseph, have you forgotten how each of these church’s respective synods were playing “hot potato” with the issue of the OCU? The Greek synod especially was craven, with the antics of the Arb of Athens and the Synod passing the buck between them.
If anything the other 12 churches (including the OCA) have shown exemplary courage standing up to the Phanar, NATO and the State Dept.
Markos, saying “no” to Patriarch Bartholomew is a little boy thing to do. It doesn’t constitute manning-up. The only churches right now that have any balls are Constantinople, Alexandria, Greece, and Cyprus.
Alexandria is corrupt and is already living with a huge Russian Exarchate next to them in Cairo. Half of Greece is against autocephaly. In Cyprus it’s even worse: half of the Metropolitans plus the Abbot of Kykkou monastery are also against! Should I remind everyone that Kykkou has in Cyprus more property – and therefore more real power – than the Archbishop?
Joseph,
They ARE actually siding with Bartholomew…but the version of Bartholomew who put his signature on paper TWICE (in 1992 and 1997-8), affirming in letters to Moscow that Philaret and his gang were all legitimately deposed Schismatics, AND that Kiev was Moscow’s jurisdiction…However, they are NOT aligning with “Bartholomew 2.0”, (post-2017), who appears to have decided to serve a 2nd “global geopolitical master”, after he was “spiritually castrated” enough to violate the scriptural saying “let your yes be YES”, by whatever “leverage” these global geo-political overlords have over him….
Joseph, we have all known for a long time that you promote Uniate propaganda, and your arrogant statement comparing those who stand up to Bartholomew (who you present as a supreme Papist “Fuhrer-like” neo-idol to bow down to without question) to insubordinate children UNDERSCORES your pro-Uniate opinion.
Unfortunately for you and your Uniate friends, he Orthodox Church has always been SYNODAL, not Papist, and “testicular fortitude” has been exhibited throughout history by WHO stands up to heresy and Schism, and who does not…Loyalty to Christ, the Faith, and the Traditions and Teachings of our Church Fathers comes first, and not “blind” loyalty to Bartholomew.
In the meantime, it’s probably best to shift your peculiar interest of which bishop posesses anatomical structures of “sufficient magnitude” to addressing some sad personal flaws you publicly exhibit in this forum which inhibit your ability to conduct a lucid debate on facts…including but not limited to: demonstrations of Spiritual blindness, selective avoidance of Orthodox Patristic Tradition in your arguments, a passionate fixation to defend and promote the Uniate cause including a consistent staunch defense of hierarchs who also promote it, and the final final problem, egotistical obstinance…(a.k.a. the associated “anatomical thickness of your own skull”)… It doesn’t matter what is written, what is repeated multiple times…you are obsessed with a tireless, repetitive promotion of a “Nebuhudnezzar-like” Bartholomaic Papist image while deviously ignoring the “narrative-crushing” facts that others keep presenting (let’s remind you again of a few of them):
1) You do remember that Cyprus / Athens / Alexandria have NOT actually conducted a proper signed SYNODAL DECREE on the matter, but it was a scandal in Athens (like the Clergy laity), where in the midst of arguments, they claimed they heard more “yes” than “no” yelling (without recording the votes)? And in Cyprus / Alexandria it was the Primates and a few of their bishops that started commemorating Epiphanios in a Liturgy, and others WALKED OUT at that moment?
2) Do you recall that as a result of “1” above, Moscow has NOT formally ceased Communion with the ENTIRETY of the Synods of Alexandria / Cyprus / Greece, but instead has published a list of which bishops in the aforementioned local Churches “commemorate / concelebrate” and who DO NOT? Kind of a major detail for you and the propagandist media to be ignoring…
3) Do you not recall that on Mt. Athos, some monasteries also keep track of which hieromonks have “concelebrated” with Epiphanios’ crew, and as such they don’t allow these hieromonks to officiate in their own monastery?
4) You do remember that the nuns at St. Nektarios monstery in Aegina REFUSED to allow a delegation from Epiphanios to set foot there, correct? Do you not remember those headlines?
5) All of this just means one thing…the exact thing that we have been saying for years here…Alexandria / Cyprus / Greece have “imported” the Constantinopolitan “Ukrainian tomos” Schism into their own Synods, with some who participate, and others who refuse to do so…
6) The Canons are clear though…as long as there are 3 bishops who don’t participate in a heresy or Schism, the local Church is viable, because they can take over and continue to ordain new bishops…fortunatley, Greece / Alexandria / Cyprus currently have at least 3 each who aren’t fully on board the “Bartholomew wrecking train” right now…
7) Patriarch Daniel does NOT want to import such schisms into the Bulgarian Church…and you are saying that this is “childish”…Are you on someone’s payroll that we should know about? Is part of that “Ecumenical Office budget” that the Clergy-Laity Congress approved the other day paying for propagandists to infiltrate “non-conformist” blogs? It would be great to investigate and know the answer, but because the Archdiocese won’t disclose the details, we’ll probably have to wait until the Delegates of some future Congress develop sufficient “male anatomy” to force the books to open…
In the meantime, we can send you a truckload of “kleenex” boxes so that you can “cry us a river” over Patriarch Daniel’s decision, or you even better, perhaps you can pack your bags in the face of defeat and take a desk job at the official Uniate Office in the Vatican where your Uniate friends will console you all day, and praise you for your “valiant” efforts…Unfortunately, you are trying to “sell” in a neighborhood that “isn’t buying” any of it…
Joseph, how can the OCU be recognized by the majority of rational Orthodox Churches? They (OCU) are comprised of schismatics, deposed clergymen, self-ordained laymen, blasphemers, brutal thugs, plunderers, thieves and profiteers. (I can actually go on and on, but I think that everyone, but you, knows these things.)
Joseph,
Do you find it self-gratifying to respond with how many apples you bought when the subject of discussion is how many oranges you have in your refrigerator?
Do you understand what a schism is (based on the definition of St. Basil in letter #188) when you see it, and what the incremental steps are (historically) before Communion is broken? Just because Communion between bishops can take a lot of time to formally “be broken”, this doesn’t mean that there isn’t a Schism currently between Bulgaria and Constantinople on this “Ukrainian tomos” fiasco…
Do you not see that this is a “slap in the face” at Bartholomew’s propaganda engine that has claimed “leadership of all Orthodox” since the 1990s when that neo-Papist slogan started circulating?
Can’t you “see” that Elpidophoros’ heretical statement that the bishop of Constatinople is “primus sine paribus” (first without equals) is crushed by Daniel’s decision as well as the stance of the “11 autocephalous Churches” he refers to?
Finally…what will you say if Daniel decides to join Moscow one day in the future and break Communion with Constantinople, especially as Constantinople continues to invest in more and more “Papist”, “Uniate” and “Ecu-(fe)-menist” activities instead of making genuine efforts to preserve the Orthodox legacy of our Church Fathers?
Joseph—by all means—please keep being a predictable broken record. You provide so much entertainment on this blog! :)
To all the readers, I have a question: the non-Russian Orthodox churches (except for Serbia) are part of NATO. The fact that even the Western-aligned ones are giving Bart the cold shoulder indicates to me that NATO is not as solid an organization as it once was. Otherwise, I firmly believe that Romania, Bulgaria and all the other local NATO nations would have pushed hard on their patriarchs to do Bart’s bidding.
What do y’all think? Am i overthinking this?
George, I think that you are spot on!
There is a political pressure connection, certainly…That’s why you see so many politicians and Phanariots (even Karloutsos) descending upon primate elections in Cyprus and Bulgaria…In Cyprus, they won…in Bulgaria, they lost…
But at the same time, there is still some solid post-Soviet “True Orthodox Faith” momentum in the hierarchical ranks (and conscience) of former “East Block” nations, (especially after the KGB plants like Philaret were ousted or died away), and it may take another generation or two before these Churches “fall” like the “infiltrated ones” have…maybe in the meantime the people will rise up and oust the corrupt ones from the Church, the same way that the delegation from Ferrara was treated after its return from that treasonous 1439 conference…
George, the idea that Patriarch Bartholomew and NATO are “pressuring” Orthodox churches to recognize the OCU has shown itself to be an empty narrative. There is no such pressure.
Even in the Baltics, where there is in fact real pressure to separate from the Moscow Patriarchate, those Baltic governments have no interest in whether or not their Orthodox churches recognize the OCU. The same actually goes for the government in Ukraine. The Ukrainian government could care less if Metropolitan Onuphry recognizes the OCU. They just want him to canonically separate from Moscow.
The ONLY church that desperately doesn’t want anyone to recognize the OCU is the Russian Church. That’s where the pressure is coming from.
Joseph what are you taking about? Just two years ago Karloutsos led a whole team of “Archons of Disaster” in a widely touted trip to Bulgaria and Romania. Then both Karloutsos and Bartholomew played a hard game influencing the patriarch election in Sofia – and lost. Karloutsos stayed in Sofia for ten days!! Recently papa – Karloutsos seemed to have resigned in this game – but he sent Mike and “John-John” (I am sure you know who that is) to Bucharest!!
Time to land to reality!! Do you really think that Helleniscope doesn’t follow their every step?
In the summer of 2019 Secretary of State Mike Pompeo flew to Athens to ask Archbishop Ieronymos of Athens to recognize the fake Church. The Archbishop did two months later.
It was also publicized around the same time that American diplomats in Serbia, Rumania, Bulgaria, and Georgia visited those Church leaders to ask them to recognize the fake Church.
The US and NATO are very much interested in carving up the Russian Church. This is insulting as they testing Christ’s Church as a political institution.
What do you think about the Estonian government’s pressure on the Estonian Church? Is this not emulating the Ukrainian government’s ugly tactics to create a government controlled Church?
Axios—Patriarch Daniel!
My view and opinion is closer To Joseph’s. The other Orthodox churches, even the ones who are of nations that are part of NATO, are still clinging to their Slav master, the Moscow patriarchate. The reason that the Bulgarian church is still in communion with the Konstantinople church, is that the recognition of the Ukrainian church will be too much of a break with the Moscow patriarchate, enough to raise the ire of Putin–who is the real head of the church—to declare anyone who dares to take such a step an enemy and in the process, infiltrate their church and fanaticize the “super-Orthodox”- creating violence and schism. Putin is a master at such divisions, by claiming the “true Orthodoxy” scepter, which to him is based on violence, murder, conspiracy theories and theft, which of course has nothing to do with Christianity.
We can criticize Bartholomeau, but in comparison, Putin is the personification of evil. Putin has power of a State to manipulate. Bartholomeau does not.
Putin is evil? Have you seen what Zelensky and his government have been doing? Glorifying the Nazi collaborators and persecuting the Church.
Desecrating the relics of the Saints at the Kiev Lavra with secular officials inspecting them as if they were Egyptian mummies. Tormenting bishops and priests for confessing their faith in Christ. Seizing Churches with violence.
As for evil, the Russians did not invade Iraq or Iran. Did not destroy Libya and Syria turning those countries into failed states and creating humanitarian disasters. Nor is Russia arming the genocidal regime in Israel.
Theodoros – you are absolutely correct. Vladimir Putin has proved over the years that he is restrained and acting rationally (and not emotionally as Trump does – along with many other Western “puppets” that pretend to be leaders). The West intentionally misconceives Putin in order to blame him instead of blaming themselves for their aggression: For 30 years they have violated their promises and expanded NATO estawards untilRussia was lefft with no other choice but act militarily and otherwise to protect its Naval bases in Crimea and its Russian population in Eastren Ukraine.
Nick. You must be aware that the former Warsaw pact members were independent nations, that decided to join NATO. They weren’t forced. Any promises of no NATO extension was not by those nations themselves and it was not a written agreement. If your neighbor tells you that you better not do an addition on your house, even though the code allows it, that neighbor is a bully and he’s wrong. They had every right to join any alliance they wanted. Moldova didn’t join NATO, because they didn’t want to and they were left alone.
The fact that Russia wanted to “protect” its population or naval bases is not a cause for invading a sovereign country. Hitler and Mussolini used these excuses to invade Checkoslovakia and Poland. Aggressive war is not allowed on the UN charter. The only war allowed is to protect a nation’s territory. Which is what Ukraine is doing against an aggressor, Using that same excuse is what Turkey did to Cyprus. Turkey might use it in Thrace. The narrative that Putin is protecting anything by invading a sovereign country will come back to haunt us. It has no basis in fact.
I am not sure what you mean by Putin being restrained. The fact that he hasn’t used the nuclear bomb is proof of restrain? Otherwise, he is in a five year war, with no end in sight, and he’s bombing civilians. After he invaded Georgia.
Nick, by blaming the west for expending NATO is not a valid argument. Please, show how those countries were coerced to join the alliance.
Bob -it’s time to wake up… Do you mean to tell me that Greece, a NATO member decided to not accept Skopje with the any name including the name “Macedonia” in NATO and then NATO (i.e. the US deep state) would say “Fine, we agree with you Greece, you actually have a veto and you can block Skopje”… Is this what you mean Bob?
Because Greece did just that in the Bucharest NATO synod of 2008 and just months later the CIA organized an assassination attempt against Costa Karamanlis, the PM who had the guts to say NO!!
The icing on the cake is that, very likely, Russsian intelligence saved Karamanlis… Please don’t insist on this issue, even the name of the CIA agant responsible for the act is public… And he is still a CIA trainer in Maryland…
Are you ever going to wake up?
Nick. I’m not sure what Skopje has to do with the former warsaw pact members joining NATO. Obviously, Skopje was eager to join. This is the crux of the issue. That NATO expended not to threaten Russia, but to protect its members from aggression. Russia might feel threatened, because she always suspected the West’s motives, while adopting its culture and technology. But NATO is not an aggressive alliance. Russia was invited to join. She refused. And the proof ir eident. The peace in Europe has held for 85 years. At no time has peace reigned in Europe for such a span of time.
Bob I am a little step away from banning you… Was not Skopje about NATO expansion on Russian (former Soviet) sphere of influence? Or at the minimum squeezing Russia so to force the West’s expansionist policies? P-lease come to your senses if you want to be part of reasonable discussion and debate. Russia did never threat the West over the last 500 years… The West threaten Russia and the result was always defeat for the West. How many times the last 200 years Russia’s army paraded in Berlin and in Paris? $ or 5 I have lost count… Prepare for one more time soon…
NATO is not aggressive? You might want to ask the Serbs if they share that assessment. Or Cyprus which was invaded by NATO member Turkey.
Bob Karp you are very misinformed. Ask our dear Serbian Orthodox brothers if NATO is a defensive alliance. It is not. It is the army of Western Europe that stands against our traditional Orthodox values. NATO is as corrupt as the Zelensky regime itself.
theodoros.
The Ukrainians and Poles have a bloody history. Ukrainians aligned with Hiler to free themselves from the Soviet Union in 1940. They weren’t the only ones. Finland aligned with Hitler to win back the territory she lost during the winter war. The French and Norwegian collaborators did the same. The Greek collaborators, or germanotsoliades killed more innocent Greeks than the Germans did.
We can sit here and be critics of those people, but you don’t know what you would have done if you were there and had to feed your family and survive another day. That was the reason for the return of the medals by Zelinsky. He is not honoring Nazis. Its so frustrating, that you people pile up on someone that you have no skin in the game, because you want to prove your love for Russia, as long as that love is expressed from afar. If you think Russia’s Putin is so good, while America is so bad–and I’m not defending America, which I think has done some bad things— why not move there?
I despise Trump but not to the point of saying Putin is better. You have the right to offer your opinion and criticize America’s faults, but at least its something you’re allowed to do. Try doing that in Russia. And try making a living there. I’m an immigrant from Greece. I am thankful for the opportunities this country gave me, but I am not blind to its faults. By you blaming America while you’re residing here and paying taxes is hypocritical, because you are a contributor to the wrongs America is doing. At least, have the honesty to tell us that you have no qualms about your double dealing.
Putin and Russia found a real way to peacefully coexist with Muslims living in Russia to the point that these Muslims are the best fighters in the Russian Army. No American president in recent times has achieved anything siilar.
Putin also – along with the Russian Orthodox Church, rejected homosexuality and protected the family. We are still waiting for Trump to do anything close…
Nick. I dont understand why you’re telling me you’ll ban me. You know what we say here is just opinion. It is not earth shaking. You know it will not change my opinion. You’re free to ban me of course.
as for comparing Russia’s Muslims to America’s. it makes no sense. America integrates its forces. Muslims serve without being a separate unit. And its voluntary service. They’re not drafted as in Russia. Plus, Muslims are so few here, about 2% of the population, while Russia’s is 15 %. There is no way to compare the two.
Trump does not have the right to reject homosexuality. I dont understand how you can ban a people. You can force them into hiding, but you can’t ban them. America has moved beyond that.
There is a difference between good faith comments and trolling. There is no need to be part of a discussion when you close your eyes to the facts. Telling us in July 2024 that “Putin is bad” and “aggressive” the moment Trump and Israel have caused endless wars and killed innocents is ridiculous and leaves no space for further discussion. PERIOD.
Bob – let me put it in another way so you understand: This exactly how Tsougarakis supports Elpidophoros – blindly – and makes you furious!! At least he is making money doing it but you don’t!!
Mr Stamatakis,
I suspect Bob was raised during the Cold War era and his family had ties with the military or the government in general…
Many people who were raised during the Cold War are still very anti-Russian and they don’t even know why!
I don’t know if that is also the case for Joseph. He sounds younger. Maybe he is a new recruit of the “company”, that is traditionally anti-Russian. Their favourite places to recruit are colleges and universities…
Nick. I always make good faith comments dont troll. I write what I believe. You’re saying that America and Israel are just as bad, so I shouldn’t criticize Putin. If the comments were about America or Israel, I would criticize them. But when the subject is the Ukrainian war situation, we focus on that.
Also, just so you know, Russia lost the Krimean war, the Russo=-Japanese war and the WWI.. And she was humiliated by Finland in the winter war. And she contributed to Hitler’s conquest of Poland, which was the beginning of WWII, by being a coward, while Great Britain and Greece were fighting on the side of freedom. The times that she marched into Paris and Berlin is when she was supported by the allies.
I do not support a person blindly. You are the one who supports Putin blindly as you did with Trump. I dont support Zelensky. But I support Ukrainians right to self-determination. Are they perfect? Of course not. Greeks weren’t perfect during their war of independence. They were killing each other as much as the Turks. But they still deserved to be free. You should not take things personally. This blog will not change the world. Its just a discussion.
Please go back and read history. Russia never lost a Crimea War the last 200 years… Read my previous commments. You support the Ukro-Nazis who – just a few days ago – Poland exposed once again for their crimes during WWII and condemned Zelensky for celebrating these Nazis as “heroes”…..
What was done in the past was done. The problem today is that Ukrainians are honoring specific people who are Nazi collaborators.
Ukrainian tanks today have been displaying Nazi symbols.
In 2023, Zelensky and other Ukrainian officials were present in the Canadian Parliament when a ninety eight year old Ukrainian Nazi collaborator was honored.
This guy murdered Jews and Poles. Ukrainian officials today have gone out of their way to embrace Nazism and to offend countries such as Poland.
theodore
Bottom line is that Ukrainians deserve the right to self-determinate. Are they perfect? Of course not. No country is. Greece, during her war of independence was riven by different factions, fighting and killing each other. After the German occupation, Greeks killed each other with more glee that Germans killing them. Did they not deserve to be free? War brings out the worse in people.
You and I dont have the right to offer an opinion on their quest for freedom. They deserve it, by virtue of their spirit of patriotism, having kept at bay a powerful opponent for over 4 years.
Bob – the Ukrainians do not “self-determinate”. They are directed by the “combined West” every step of the way. Why do you forget that Merkel and Hollande admitted they signed the Minsk agreements just to gain time to arm Ukraine? What is wrong with you? Tsougarakis would have a fairer approach to this compared to what he does with Elpidoktonos…
Bob, you overplay the “Slav master” thing. This type of reasoning can just as easily be turned against the Greek churches. Do they serve their “Greek master” in Istanbul?
In my opinion, the Bulgarian Patriarch has found the “golden mean”. He maintains, as he can, normal relations with Constantinople while refusing to take sides in what has become a bloody dispute about who runs the Ukrainian church. Some people believe that what Patriarch Bartholomew has done in this situation is needful, in that Moscow would never grant autocephaly to Kiev freely. They may have a technical point. In the end, to remind ourselves of this principle, true autocephaly would mean no bureaucratic attachment to either Constantinople or Moscow. I may be altogether deceived, but Metropolitan Onufriy (Berezovky) seems the man to lead in that direction. Should we not support this bishop rather than any other “outsider”? Ειρήνη Πάσι
The aim of autocephaly is to reduce the tensions of nationalism that can antagonize the Church. It is for this very reason that North America’s OCA negotiated for autocephaly from Russia during the Cold War in 1970. Without it, the OCA would likely have been considered suspect and as an arm of Soviet Russia. Being persecuted for the sake of the Gospel is certainly honorable, but being persecuted for the sake of Soviet Russia would have been ridiculous.
This brings to question, why is Metropolitan Onufriy and the UOC being persecuted? Is it for the sake of the Gospel? Or, is it for the sake of Russian geo-politics? It is apparent that those who are persecuting Metropolitan Onufriy and the UOC are doing so ONLY because they view the UOC as still being the “Russian Church”. This is not a misrepresentation either, because every Local Orthodox Church worldwide still views Metropolitan Onufriy and the UOC as being a branch of the Russian Church in Ukraine.
The decision of Patriarch Daniel of Bulgaria not to recognize the OCU undoubtedly reflects the majority position of the Bulgarian Church, but it is not a unanimous decision. Two members of the Bulgarian Holy Synod concelebrated with the OCU in May 2024, Metropolitans Nicholas of Plovdiv and Cyprian of Stara Zagora. The Russian Orthodox Church subsequently announced in May 2024 that they had broken communion with these two members of the Bulgarian Holy Synod.
The Russian Church wants to make this an either-or decision in Ukraine: either choose the UOC and Russia, or choose the OCU and no Russia. That’s a threat. Constantinople is not playing that game though and still recognizes both.
Why don’t you discuss what business did Karloutsos – a CIA and State Dept. Agent – have to do multiple trips in Bulgaria (likely carrying suitcases of cash) to meet members of the Bulgarian synod? If you are going to talk “foreign influence” on Bulgaria be fair…
Helleniscope, even if “suitcases of cash” were given, this does not constitute pressure. Yes, the Ecumenical Patriarchate has been unable to persuade most of the Local Churches to recognize the OCU. That’s been their free decision. Patriarch Bartholomew has not issued any threats.
The Russian Church, on the other hand, has singularly threatened any church that recognizes the OCU with excommunication, and that’s plain extortion.
Joseph, everybody is laughing with you!!! “Bartholomew has not issued any threats”??? But what do you think the powers behind him do? The powers who support burning of the UOC churches and kicking out the faithful? Who prohibits the Russian language? Just this weekend there was a lot of fuss in Brussels whether they should sanction Patriarch Kirill!! The Bulgarians vetoed this atrocity… You are certainly an entertaining laughing stock….
YET. That’s the key word. I think Moscow partisans also need to realize something: Ukrainian Autocephaly is INEVITABLE. It can’t be stopped now. This war has turned the great majority of Ukrainians against Russia. There will be no returning to the pre-war status quo. Nor will the Ukrainians accept the liquidation of the UOC, as has already happened in the territories Russia took. Moscow partisans already have condemned the UOC’s insistence on maintaining its integrity and patriotism (note I didn’t say Nationalism) as “Banderism.”
There’s no going back. To say that the other Churches are being cowards is ridiculous. Romania certainly isn’t afraid of the Moscow Patriarchate (if Moldova is any indication). Many of them have built personal relationships with Metropolitan Onuphry and other hierarchs of the UOC. It stands to reason that they aren’t going to let politics destroy those relationships. It doesn’t help that the actions of the former UOC-KP soured impressions. The political shenanigans at the “Reunification council” and Philaret’s schismatic acts only further poisoned the well.
I understand those who refuse to support the OCU. I also understand those who initially supported the OCU (like those who initially supported the Iraq and Afghan Wars based on “faulty intelligence” or assumptions that turned out to be wrong).
Whatever one’s views were in 2018, time has shown that the WHOLE THING could have been handled better. The caution of the other local Churches is wise, given how events have unfolded.
YET – wait until Russian troops march into Kiev – if you want to use the word YET…. Or better YET, into Berlin for the 3rd time in 150 years. Then you explain to us the meaning of YET.
The issue is not Ukrainian autocephaly or whether Moscow will recognize it. Autocephalies rise and fall (e.g. Trnovo, Trebizond, etc.) In other words, the Kremlin isn’t fighting this war to prevent the Ukraine from achieving autocaphaly.
The issue is the countless NATO provocations against Russia, the constant poking of the bear. Russia has no designs on conquest of either the Ukraine or Western Europe, only a deluded russophobe believes anything like that. Russia is actually behaving rationally, just as JFK did during the Cuban missile crisis, or Reagan in fighting the Sandinistas (or Trump in securing the Western Hemisphere).
The Bush 41 Administration understood this when they made promises that they would not expand NATO’s borders any further than the then newly-reunited Germany. Clinton of course violated this, now all former Warsaw Pact nations are part of NATO. The Ukraine was the bridge too far. That, plus the 38 biolabs set up by the US in the Ukraine.
One doesn’t have to be a rocket scientist to see that these were massive provocations against Russia. To the extent which many in the West can’t see this makes me question their sanity.
Following the advice of my spiritual father, I’m trying to avoid posting on blogs like this. I will just say this; when someone posted a heretical Protestant prayer(in Jesus’s Name; what happened to the Holy Trinity)against Mr. Karp, NOBODY called her on it. When someone trashed Sandy for pointing out that Padre Pio is a heretical pseudo-saint, NOBODY came to her defense. When people defend canonical Orthodoxy and Christian morality, all hell breaks loose. Think about it.
Give it 20 years like most recognitions of the other Autocephalous churches and the OCU will be recognised by more Churches.
No need to fret, eventually it will happen, or Onufriy will make the smart move and heal the schism himself, as his structure is essentially double schismatic.
Yes give it some time – any day now the Russian Army will enter Kiev and Odesa and the autocephaly problem will be solved for good…
I would like to remind everyone that the Russian goal in 2022 was “demilitarization”. Not only they demilitarized Ukraine but also NATO and the US… Who are now struggling to produce a few extra useless Patriot missiles – 3-4 generations behind in missile technology…
In previous cases where Churches sought autocephaly, they were fully canonical Churches with valid ordinations and apostolic succession.
The Ukrainian Orthodox Church is canonical and its clergy have valid ordinations. The OCU have no apostolic succession or valid ordinations. This is why no other Churches will recognize them. Not in twenty years, and not in one hundred years.
In the Church of Greece there are bishops, monastics, and lay people opposed to recognition of the OCU. Within the Alexandrian Patriarchate, African priests left to join the Russians.
In Cyprus, several bishops are in opposition.
Outside Constantinople’s jurisdiction, recognition of the OCU proceeded with loud protests and denunciations. In Greece, the Archbishop acted without a vote from the synod.
The OCU is a gang of psychopaths who dress like bishops and priests. They are violent extremists and fascists now apparently planning to hold pagan ceremonies in the Kiev Lavra.
It has been eight years since Patriarch Bartholomew started this. Churches who have resisted western pressure up to this point will not relent in the future.
A more likely scenario than acceptance or recognition of the OCU by the universal Church will be a final and irreversible schism. The Phanar has made nothing but mistakes since it started this mess.
There is no reason to believe that this long pattern of errors and miscalculations will somehow be corrected in the future. At stake, is the sacred nature of the Church, its faith and dogma, ecclesiology, and holy canons.
Those American and Ukrainian officials who collaborated with the Ecumenical Patriarch are heretics and non believers. They have treated Christ’s sacred Church as if it were a political instrument to achieve their anti Russian objectives.
Tom, the OCU is a mishmash of non-ordained charlatans. The only way they can rectify the situation is for all their “hierarchy” to go before Met Onuphriy hat in hand, resign their positions and repent.
Everyone keeps parroting the NATO talking point.
But why? Russia had to have known that “drawing the line” like they did would bring Finland, Sweden and God knows who else into NATO and the anti-Russian camp. How does that make sense strategically?
You don’t need a degree from West Point to know that’s dumb (former Army buck Sergeant here). Heck, anybody who has ever played Risk will know that’s stupid.
NO. NO. NO.
This was always just about Ukraine. They aren’t going to say the real reason out loud, in English anyways. That in their eyes, Ukraine isn’t a real country. Kyiv/Kiev is the “mother of Russian cities”, and they will fight to keep it. They were too weak to stop Ukraine from breaking away in 1991, and they aren’t going to let it happen EVER. The goal was always reunification, through security and economic “integration.” That process is underway in Belarus. Eventually, Belarus will “join” the Russian Federation. Ukraine was more difficult, because of the Galician West being in the fold, but the Russians were playing the long game. The Maidan upended that plan.
I am totally baffled by how so many Americans are “taking sides” in European blood feuds. Because that’s what they are. Old conflicts dressed up with modern terms like “security frameworks.” The Russians don’t really care (that much) about Finland or Lithuania joining NATO because those peoples generally have always hated Russia (and vice versa). It’s the ancient status quo. Ukraine (more specifically, Kiev/Kyiv) is the heart of Russian identity and why Russia went bonkers when it was threatened. Russia won’t stop until the city itself is part of Russia again. They lie when they say otherwise, just as surely as Merkel lied about Minsk.
It’s the same with the Church. Ancient blood feuds masquerading as canonical concern. Russia as Katechon is a psyop from the Kremlin. “Romiosini” is Greek insecurity codified. It’s crap.
I thought MAGA’s thing was to disentangle us from this nonsense? Not egg it on because Orthodoxy has a nasty habit of wearing these conflicts like an armband. Are American politics too boring, that we have to follow other countries conflicts like the World Cup?
Lord, have mercy.
Will the other monasteries on Athos now cease celebration with New Esphigmenou….
https://orthodoxtimes.com/abbot-of-esphigmenou-monastery-concelebrates-with-metropolitan-epifaniy-in-kyiv/
If they haven’t severed communion over the multiple concelebrations done over the years, why would they do so now?
Nobody wants an actual schism (Moscow and the EP don’t concelebrate, but the EP hasn’t broken communion and most Russians abroad maintain the relationships with the Greek world (in particular Athos and Elder Ephraim’s Monasteries in North America) they had before 2018.
The other local Churches have made it clear that they won’t stand for more schism, which is why they almost belligerently maintain ties with both sides (politely ignoring the uncanonical behavior coming from both ends). It will be awkward for a little while, but the “conflict,” at least in the Church has been frozen.
Nothing can be resolved while the war is going on, and so everybody is waiting for that to end, one way or the other.
Petros, no they won’t, because the Russian Church is THE ONLY church that excommunicates those who concelebrate with the OCU. Nobody else does that. It is plainly unnecessary, and it only serves to widen the schism. There is no valid reason, for example, why ROCOR can’t be in communion with the Greek Archdiocese in America.